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Original Message
Forum Muslim Schools 
Topic Honour Killing 
Author Iftikhar 
Date Created 15/11/2003 22:09:52 
Message Established 1981
London School of Islamics
An Educational Trust
63 Margery Park Road London E7 9LD
Email: info@londonschoolofislamics.org.uk
Tel/Fax: 0208 555 2733 / 07817 112 667

Honour Killing

A Muslim was jailed for life for slitting his daughterís throat in an ďhonour killingĒ after she embraced western culture and began dating a Christian. This is a tragic story of irreconciable cultural differences between a father who had a traditional Muslim upbringing, values and background and a daughter who was a thoroughly westernized woman. Father with strict Muslim beliefs murdered ďbright, vibrantĒ teenager who planned to runaway with Christian boyfriend.

A man with strict Muslim beliefs would certainly not kill his daughter. Such tragedies have nothing to do with faith or race. Her father could not control his emotions and his un-Islamic action is also liable for punishment under Islamic law. The tragedy could have been avoided if the poor girl was educated in a Muslim school by Muslim teachers. She is a product of de-education by state school. According to British law, the children should be educated according to the needs and demands of the parents but his daughter was educated to be a westernized woman, instead of a Muslim.

This tragedy is an eye opener for all those Muslim parents who send their children to state schools where they are exposed to teachers who have no respect for Islamic faith and Muslim community. There is a negative co-relation between home and school. The prime aim of schooling is to anglicize all children irrespective of their backgrounds. They are victim of institutional racism and Islamophobia. Already there are more than 6000 Muslim teenager girls in the custody of the social services, a product of the mis-education and de-education by state schools. Muslim youth are involved in drugs, prostitution, abandoning families, abortion and high rate of divorce. Muslim children need Muslim schools with Muslim teachers for proper growth during their developmental periods.

The silent majority of Muslim parents would like to send their children to Muslim schools but there are not enough schools to go by. The only alternative left is either British Government should introduce voucher system for parents to choose the school of their choice or designate all those state schools as Muslim community schools where Muslim pupils are in majority. There are hundreds of state schools where Muslims are in majority. Such schools may be handed over to Muslim educational Trusts or charities for their management. They are in a better position to educate Muslim children in accordance with their needs and demands. This demand is in accordance with the law of the land because there are state schools already managed by private companies.
Iftikhar Ahmad

Topic Re: Honour Killing 
Author DONVAN 
Date Created 26/11/2003 20:58:07 
Message Greetings,
The assertion "Honor Killings" are non-islamic not true.
The Kor'an clearly allows for the father to preserve the honor of the family even to the death. Can we allow Muslim
women to be exposed to the non-muslim infidel? Allah forbid!
History tells that Mohammed himself permitted the killing of women for many offences against Allah. Why do you deny the truth of Islam? Muslims have been killing non-muslims in Indonesia, Africa,Bangledesh,Iran,Iraq,why stop when it a daughter,or sister. Killing is what Muslims do best.
kill the Jews, Kill the Christians,Kill the infidels,
kill the daughter/son/sister with a knife or a bomb what
difference does it make, Kill Rushdie because his book is offensive,get a nuclear bomb and kill even more, kill with
airplanes into buildings, how many virgins are there in paradise?????

Topic Re: Honour Killing 
Author Jeff 
Date Created 25/12/2003 23:51:36 
Message Stop spamming the Trials of Ascension OOC Forum! You do nothing but hurt your cause by such annoying innappropriate spam!  
Topic Re: Honour Killing 
Author Penny 
Date Created 21/02/2004 13:18:53 
Message I notice that there is a possibility of another honour killing, in Cheshire this time. It appears that the young woman was not happy about the marriage her parents had arranged. She registered her protest by drinking bleach whilst on a trip to Pakistan. On her return to England, she disappeared. A body later found in a river has been identified by the jewellery found with it. The argument for arranged marriages is that everybody is happy with the choices, and that the girl gets a say in the matter. Obviously not in this case. Iftikhar, what is your response to this? 
Topic Re: Honour Killing 
Author Penny 
Date Created 21/03/2004 14:05:21 
Message Further to the suggestion by Iftikhar that Muslim schools would prevent dishonour to Muslim families, how does he equate that statement with the fact that honour killings are fairly common in Muslim countries, such as Jordan? Presumably these countries have Muslim schools, teach Urdu, Arabic and other languages, and a programme of Islamic teaching. Yet still women die at the hands of their families. If it doesn't work in a Muslim state, why does Iftikhar think it would work here? It is also interesting to note that on all the Muslim youth forums, this matter is not discussed, nor the treatment of women in Islam. Where are the voices of the women? There are two ladies who post on this site, yet they have made no comment on this topic. I find that worrying. 
Topic Re: Honour Killing 
Author A teacher 
Date Created 03/04/2004 18:21:46 
Message As a teacher in a school with lots of muslim pupils I am am more than upset by your posting Iftikhar.

Part of what you have written.
"Muslim parents who send their children to state schools where they are exposed to teachers who have no respect for Islamic faith and Muslim community. There is a negative co-relation between home and school. The prime aim of schooling is to anglicize all children irrespective of their backgrounds. They are victim of institutional racism and Islamophobia."

I do not disrespect the Islamic faith, I do not aim to anglicize all children.

I respect the muslim community and value cultural diversity 
Topic Re: Honour Killing 
Author Penny 
Date Created 14/04/2004 11:00:38 
Message Iftikhar, I shall no longer bother posting on this site, as no debate is ever engaged in. The only editing I have ever seen is the removal of my last post concerning your spelling. There are enormous issues that we should be able to discuss, to open understanding and tolerance, yet no opportunity is ever made on this site to respond to the comments made, or indeed even to remove offensive postings. There is no useful exchange of views; this just seems to be a site where you post your statements, and walk away. It is sad that the opportunity to learn from each other has not been taken. 
Topic Re: Honour Killing 
Author nigel foster 
Date Created 15/04/2004 01:16:18 
Message Penny - well said.

I have had a similar experience. Iftikhar will not discuss.
Neither will Islam.
Topic Re: Honour Killing 
Author R. Khan 
Date Created 05/05/2004 11:14:13 
Message I am conducting post-doctoral research in the area of 'severe sibling violence perpetration'. I have choosen to ignore some of the comments already posted, not mainly because I have taken offense [which I have] but because of the idea that there is only one factor which explains the source of the oxymronically termed 'honour killings'. Furthermore, anyone who can justify ANY killing as understandble, especially in the name of a holy book, is beyond my comprehension. By not taking a multifactorial position on understanding such murders, only a limited deduction can be made. An obvious point but people kill people - and many justify their behaviour with a subjective and often irrational reason. In this case, blaming the Islamic people is not going to help anyone, in the same way, blaming all men for rape is not feasible.

As a forensic psychologist, and an Asian female at that, you might expect me to have outspoken views on these horrendous crimes. However, as a scientist, I am primnarily concerned with dealing with these issue, in terms of prediction and prevention.

I simply wanted to post a note to ask if anyone has details, statistics, or can provide a weblink on sibling honour killings in the UK.

My aim is to design a program and a plan of action to deal with the killing of siblings by other siblings - the prevalance rates I have from previous research indicates that siblicide is equally as common in the different races/relgions of all those interviewed.

Any help would be appreciated.
Dr. R. Khan  
Topic Re: Honour Killing 
Author Sister 
Date Created 11/05/2004 19:32:57 
Message I am a 19 yr old student at university.It would like to say it would be great if all muslim children could go to a muslim school but at the present time it just cannot happen. They are ridiculously expensive, there are very few of them and not local.
But saying that i went to non islmaic high school, primary school and univertsity.But i dont think ive turned out westernised at all.On the contrary. I am a practising muslim, i wear hijaab, read namaaz, and try to follow the sunnah way of living. I am trying to gain as much islamic knowledge as i can. And have just started taking tajweed lessons!!
I think it depends alot on the way you are brought up by your parents.How they try and implement Islam into your daily life. you may spend 9-3/4pm at school but u spend the rest of the day outside of school. Also your early years before you even start nursery/primary school. The first few years of your socialisation is of key importance.
You cannot just blame it on schools. If there are lack of muslim schools then obviously something should be done about that. But in the mean time what are we doing in our homes? 
Topic Re: Honour Killing 
Author liloldme 
Date Created 30/05/2004 05:39:11 
Message what Iftikhar meant was, that the proper implementation of Islamic values in Muslim schools would be beneficial. i am sorry Penny , that your posts had not been replied to. however, haste makes waste, so don't leave off in a huff. i read all these comments for the first time today. i am a 21 years old Pakistani girl. ok, without beating behind the bush, it is imperative to face the facts. even in Pakistani schools, such incidents as dating etc. take place. no denying of the fact. but being a part of the system, let me tell you, that Islam is taught only as a subject in our schools. and there is no rule to stop the children from intermingling wrongly with each other, at least outside the parameters of the school. the reality is, that no efforts are made to make children understand Islam in its true light. i hate saying this, but the textbooks have the Islamic material portrayed in a very boring manner, which hardly any child would like to read of his/her own accord. your point that:

"Further to the suggestion by Iftikhar that Muslim schools would prevent dishonor to Muslim families, how does he equate that statement with the fact that honor killings are fairly common in Muslim countries, such as Jordan?"

that is very true. but the thing is.. that those schools are also so-called Muslim schools. again, i will repeat that care is not taken to practice Islam. corruption reigns supreme almost everywhere. and as far as the issue of a girl involved in an arranged marriage, again, the same thing applies, that Islam is not practiced upon as it should be. Islam has given the freedom to a girl to marry the person she wants to marry. no compulsion even here.

please forgive my spelling and grammatical errors. well! what can u expect? English is my second language and i'm not so adept at it as the native speakers are. er..., and i am careless about punctuation as that takes up a teeny weeny bit of more of the time!
with best regards
little old me

Topic Re: Honour Killing 
Author James 
Date Created 16/06/2004 12:07:25 
Message The thing is that Islam, like Roman Catholicism, comes in many colours, tones or to put it more clearly sects. The Muslim faith in rural Yemen is not the same as that practiced by educated moderate Muslims in Britain.

There is a great need for moderate educated Muslims to carry out a greater Jihad to teach their form of their faith rather than the extremist interpretations of Hamza, Bakri, bin Laden etc and the intolerant mistaken backcountry ideas like those of the murderous father in this quote.

As regards another poster's veiws on the schools in Jordan. I find that argument completely false - they are not 'so called' Islamic schools. They are schools which reflect the Muslim power and culture of that country. You can't say they're not Muslim schools when the dominant and almost only permitted religion and culture of the country is Muslim. If you do not accept that sect of the Muslim faith then name the variety which is wrong and say why but don't say that we should have Muslim schools here when they don't even work in Muslim countries. 
Topic Re: Honour Killing 
Author liloldme 
Date Created 18/06/2004 04:29:39 
Message Peace! ok, i am sorry, and take my words back. they are not so called Muslim schools. but one thing i just fail to understand is that why do we have the habit of generalizing so much? if, as one of the poster said,

"Further to the suggestion by Iftikhar that Muslim schools would prevent dishonor to Muslim families, how does he equate that statement with the fact that honor killings are fairly common in Muslim countries, such as Jordan?"

its ok to be sceptic, but atleast give others a chance. what if the Muslim schools Iftikhar wants to be establised really do help in promoting peace and prevent honor killings?

Author James wrote:

"If you do not accept that sect of the Muslim faith then name the variety which is wrong and say why but don't say that we should have Muslim schools here when they don't even work in Muslim countries. "

that needs to be researched. not all Muslim schools fail to work in muslim countries. again that would be a generalization. and what harm would a muslim school do to anyone else in London? there are Christian schools here in Pakistan. i can't say that all is going smooth and 'Christian' over there. but we don't object. we let them be. it's their right to practice their faith wherever they are. and unless things go really out of hand, we Muslims don't put any objections to them. the mental outlook needs overhauling; on both sides.
Topic Re: Honour Killing 
Author Hey Socal 
Date Created 27/06/2004 00:48:30 
Message I have received an e-mail circular from the LSI (IA) regarding Islamophobia - which linked to the LSI website. I don't know why I am on the LSI e-mail list but I wouild like to be removed.

For the record:

1. Islamophobia, according to my understanding of the English language, means a dislike or a hatred of Islam, which is a religious belief/faith, a belief system and a set of cultural and societal rules (with greatly varying interpretations around the world). Dislike of a belief system, or a religious faith, or a set of cultural/societal rules does not automatically equate to a dislike (or hatred) of all those who profess adherence to that belief system. Islamophobe is not a term I would use to describe my own position (as "phobia" might imply an irrational prejudice or fear and my dislike of Islam is neither irrational nor based on prejudice) but those who seek to tarnish all who criticise or denounce a belief system as racist bigots are themselves guilty of fomenting racial divisions within society.

2. Islamic schools are racially and culturally divisive and should be rejected with horror by anyone who believes in a racially integrated and multi-cultural society. Christian, Jewish and other so-called faith schools are likewise divisive (and should be phased out) but Muslim schools are particularly dangerous as they would (and do) encourage and consolidate racial and cultural divisions to a much greater extent than most existing denominational schools (as well as providing an awful and wholly inappropriate standard of education to the children of Muslim parents - especially the girls - as confirmed by Iftikhar Ahmad's own comments). Integrated and secular education is absolutely essential for an integrated and secular society.

3. Those on the progressive left of British politics believe in a secular society as a matter of principle. Those who believe in a confessionally divided society are enemies of any progressive political agenda.

4. A genuinely multicultural society is both possible and desirable - but there are limits to multi-culturalism and we all have to accept that cultures (including religious belief systems) will chabge and be changed as a result of living within a society where we are all exposed to a plurality of beliefs and philosphies. The demands of some within the Muslim communities amount to obscurantism and an insistence that their young people should not be exposed to, or educated about, any beliefs which do not accord with their own (often narrow and reactionary) interpretation of their religious and cultural heritage. In this sense the bigots in the Muslim communities are little different from the bigots in the white racist/nationalist camp who object to their children being taught about relgions and cultures originating in other parts of the world (it is ironic, but entirely consistent with the irrationality of such people, that Christianity, like all major world religions, originated in Asia).

5. To discriminate against someone because of what they believe in is not the same as discriminating against someone because of their race or skin colour. There are occasions when it is entirely legitimate to make a judgement based on what someone believes in - and how they choose to express their beliefs. If I were interviewing someone to work in an advice centre dealing with young wemen or girls who were pregnant and seeking advice on their options (including abortion) I would think it quite reasonable to make a judgement about a candidate who came to the interview sporting a large and visible crucufix or some other symbol of religious adherence which might carry implied messages for frightened and vulnerable young women seeking impartial and synmpathetic advice.

I once visited a Community Relatins Council office in West Yorkshire where a CRO had posted a poem on his office wall (where he interviewed clients and those seeking his advice) which included lines about Muslim women being damned for dancing, consorting with men and failing to obey the strictures of their fathers, elders and Imams. This display of his own beliefs in such a workplace was outrageous and if this person had worked in the CRC I managed at that time he would have been instructed to remove this offensive drivel, warned about inappropriate conduct at the workplace and I would have monitored his work closely to ensure that his dealings with clients were not influenced by his beliefs.

6. I do not have detailed knowledge of so-called honour killings in the UK but I have no doubt that thre have been a number of murders (some no doubt undetected) and many thousands of cases where violence, intimidation and coercion has been (and is being) used to enforce compliance by Muslim women and girls with the instructions and dictates of the head of the family. The deafening silence from most Muslim clerics and community leaders on this state of affairs reflects poorly on the leadership in the Muslim communities. There are some honourable exceptions to this but not enough. As far as I can see the LSI lines up with the backward and reactionary elements in this debate and I would rather not receive any further e-mails from this organisation.


Topic Re: Honour Killing 
Author Forum reader 
Date Created 17/11/2004 21:53:42 
Message "The tragedy could have been avoided if the poor girl was educated in a Muslim school by Muslim teachers."

The tradegy could also have been averted if her father didn't feel he could murder someone for the dreadful crime of having different views to him. There is something more than averagely sad about anyone who can contrive to argue that she was somehow at fault. It was her father you muppet. 
Topic Re: Honour Killing 
Author Penny Bloom 
Date Created 09/12/2004 07:11:33 
Message "The tragedy could have been avoided" if the girl's father viewed his daughter as a human being, as opposed to a piece of property.

Just like many other tragedies could be avoided (the war in Iraq, hint hint) if we could all stop dehumanizing each other.

Though I fear Iftikhar's rantings are ultimately setting us back.  
Topic Re: Honour Killing 
Author mumbo jumbo 
Date Created 09/12/2004 12:44:04 
Message Having only had two muslim friends in my lifetime (both male - really good lads, top basketballers, except when they were fasting and got tired really quick.), I am probably not best qualified to comment on the ins and outs of an issue which is basically related to people's skewed perceptions of a religious text.
However, the kind of psychopath who can murder his own sister, or behead someone on a website, or incite mass murder through hi-jacking a plane, is no better than backwards ku-klux klansmen that used to lynch black Americans, whilst pathetically hiding behind the badge of christianity.
Honour killings are not the actions of any truly religious person, no matter what religion this may be, they are the actions of nutters who have twisted some innocuous reference to suit their own crazy agenda.
These are the people who just want the excuse to do something terrible without having to face real consequences, and you don't cure things that sick with the creation of more Muslim Schools.
Maybe Muslim parents should bring up their children to be more caring and holy, instead of encouraging them to murder their siblings - in the name of 'honour' - ridiculous and deeply worrying.
It's not the stone age.
This is the 21st century. The last thing we need are more cultural divisions and barriers - people are ignorant enough as it is!
Everyone go to a mixed school, learn about other cultures and customs, and respect them - as long as they don't include cold blooded murder.
Topic Re: Honour Killing 
Author Romesh Chander 
Date Created 09/12/2004 14:21:53 
Message What is Islam? It is what muslims practice, not what Koran says. After all, only an awfully small number of people are islamic scholars to know anything about Islam (and they will not agree among themselves).

So, when one says that 'Honour Killing' is unislamic is flat wrong, and one is a mere an apologist for his religious beliefs.

We always hear 'honour killing' of daughters, but never of sons. If a daugher is considered to be dishonourable, so should be son; after all, a woman makes a man dishonourable and a man makes a woman dishonourable.

By educating children in Islamic schools is no solution; you cannot separate people from the western environment as long as you live in the west. You will be subjected to TV, advertising, people, shopping, etc. 
Topic Re: Honour Killing 
Author mumbo jumbo 
Date Created 09/12/2004 15:53:17 
Message Exactly!
The best point on this discussion so far, Romesh. 
Topic Re: Honour Killing 
Author Zak Martin 
Date Created 04/01/2005 09:02:25 
Message Hiya All,

I don't understand why people keep reading thesse posts if they piss everybody off. It's a bit obvious the guy's a bit clueless and not willing to start any discussion but still goes on posting his e-mails.

Anyhow, I thought the statement "What is Islam? It is what muslims practice, not what Koran says" to be a slight bit absurd. Islam and Muslims are two different entities and to equate the both is horrific. For example, a Muslim (more correctly, I should say many Muslim's) may drink, or there may be a Muslim prostitute but this is no reason to say drinking alcohol or prostitution is advocated by Islam, rather it's what some people who call themselves Muslim's do.

I know a Buddhist who abuses his wife and kids. This is no reason to say this is what Buddhism has taught him late in life, rather it's his own corrupted, evil ways.

I don't think Muslim schools are the solution to all the Muslim problems. It may be a step towards alleviating some of the problems.

I watched Bend it Like Beckham y'day and one of the lades mentioned how a child is a reflection of their parents. I think this is true to a large extent so long as the parents are not extreme in their views and drive the kids away. A lot of kids who are born to non-English speaking parents find it hard to communicate with their parents as English is often by far their first language and this won't be solved with bilingual Muslim school as there'e the problem of what is the second language but is the fault of the parents for not teaching them their own language properly.

Ultimately a child will live how they decide to live which will be determined by many factors including their home environment, their educational background and what gets them going!

Hope this made sense, and thanks for reading if you have.


PS- the claim that Islam differs depending on where you go, it is more the fact that people have mixed Islam with their traditions and the traditions differ rather then Islam being different. 
Topic Re: Honour Killing 
Author Tia Ranei 
Date Created 04/01/2005 17:32:25 
Message Salaam,

I'm a 21 year old Muslim Mom and totally disagree with what you said about the incident above, where it could have been avoided if the girl attended an Islamic school!

It's up to the parents to bring there kids up in a good Islamic way. Sadly nowadays most parents behave like hypocrites so what idea is the child suppose to have. You canít tell a child to do one thing and do another thing yourself. Parents donít listen to there children enough nor explain things to them enough, for them to understand fully. You canít force things upon them and expect them to understand.

Islam is so simple and so easy to follow its parents and there own views and beliefs on it that make it hard. Itís behaving in this kind of a manner that leads the children to go astray, hence why the world has a bad view on Islam.

Most people canít afford to put there children in an Islamic school, and even if they can they have to travel far, since there arenít many Schools around!
I would personally love to send my children to an Islamic school especially when they are in secondary school but it costs a bomb! The nearest affordable school near where I live(Manchester) is in Blackburn, but go going and bringing back even one child everyday would end up costing way to much.

Look at the Muslim society these days, you canít tell a Muslim from a white person. Although itís true that there are a lot of influences on Muslim youths by the none Muslims, you also have to consider that the parents arenít entirely innocent. If they are to let there child go out without a Hijaab, or in jeans, or if they donít explain to them the 5 pillars and there meanings nicely and not aggressively, and the child turns around and does Haram things how can you blame this on a school??? 
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