|Forum ||Muslim Schools
|Topic ||Muslim Schools
|Author ||David Greenwood
|Date Created ||22/11/2004 11:00:52
|Message ||Some thoughts on this message.
I completely agree with the following stated aspirations:
"Children of minority communities have the right to enjoy their own culture and to practice their own religion and language."
"Education should prepare the child for an active adult life in a free society and foster respect for the child’s parents, his or her cultural identity, language and values."
While I can see how segregated education can achieve the first aspiration and the second part of the second aspiration, I am baffled as to how you think it can "prepare a child for an active adult life in a free society."
An active adult life in a free society entails full participation in the life of that society on all levels. You seem to think that Muslims can pick and choose - society a la carte.
When you say that the use of English is to be confined to "economic activity and prosperity", you take the approach of the British colonialists who went to places like India and China in the 19th and 20th centuries, derived material benefit from living there, but failed to engage with the indigenous cultures and left as ignorant of the civilisation of their hosts as they were when they arrived. If this was wrong (and I presume we agree it was), then it would be wrong for Muslims in Western society to take the same approach. In fact, Muslims have less excuse than the British. They are permanent residents whereas the British colonialists only stayed for as long as was necessary to them.
If you do not allow your children to engage with Western society, then they will not be prepared for an active adult life in that society. They will be forever strangers in a strange land - is that really what you want ? You cannot pick and choose in this way, and then expect "full participation."
Your attempt to categorise languages (English for economics, Urdu for social, Arabic for religion) is neat but ignores reality. Economic activity is one of the most "social" activities there is. I fail to understand how you expect your children to engage in economic activity without social engagement.
Of course, the basic problem here is your extreme view of the decadence of Western society and your apparent belief that the only culture worth teaching your children is that which stems from the sub-continent and the Arabian peninsula. You seem to think that British social activity necessarily entails "binge drinking, visiting night clubs and frequently changing partners". This is at best a caricature and at worst an insulting and slanderous calumny. I do none of these things and nor do the overwheming majority of the population. If you engaged with British society more, you would know this.
The United Kingdom is a hugely diverse country, comprising nearly 60 million human souls. There are all sorts of social problems in our society, but it remains a society that is socially compassionate, artistically creative, responsible in its behaviour and welcoming to strangers. It has achieved much that is good over the centuries and continues to do so. The vast majority of its citizens enjoy material comfort, social justice, cultural enrichment and access to spiritual and religious practice, regardless of colour, creed or class.
That all this has been achieved without Islam is no doubt unpalatable, but you are not entitled to dismiss it so airily and deny your children its benefits.
God may see many things in Western society that causes him to weep, but he also sees much that is good. And he forgives us and asks us to "go and sin no more." That, at its most basic level, is Christianity.
I strongly and seriously urge you and your religious leaders to engage with those in Western society who wish you well. God wants us to love one another. Segregation would be a monstrous blunder - and your community would suffer the most, locked into a social and cultural cul-de-sac when you could be teaching and enriching society around you.
Have courage - engage !
It is a sad aspect of Western society that Christmas has become commercialised and debased in so many ways. But its message remains undimmed and shines through when people will allow it.
As a Christian, I celebrate Christmas because I believe that God took on our human form, experienced all our troubles, was willing to be poor, weak, helpless and despised, so that he might reclaim us for himself. He expects us to do the same, to reach out, to understand the problems of others and to see the good in everyone.
So at this time, I hope that, without insult to you and your faith, I can wish you a very Happy Christmas.
Yours in the God we can share
|Topic ||Re: Muslim Schools
|Author ||Free Way
|Date Created ||27/02/2005 21:00:59
|Message ||Mr Greenwood
You should read Yada Yahweh (formerly The Future's History), on www.prophetofdoom.net. It's an online book that Craig Winn is busy writing. It will help you understand who God truly is. If you don't agree with it then put it down but please reflect on it. Always keep God in your prayers for he will guide you by His Spirit in the Truth.
My Yahweh bless you,
Free Way (Matt)
|Topic ||Re: Muslim Schools
|Author ||Clever Boy
|Date Created ||02/03/2005 00:29:45
|Message ||THIS IS A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY - TO TEACH THIS RUBBISH:
And by the way, for those of you interested, some of us do our homework too. Want to know the teachings of Islam?
Here's little slice:
In Islam, according to the koran, hadiths etc, there is nothing like equal rights for the women, death is pronounced for the Jews, buddists, atheist, Christians etc and they are refered to as infidels. Also anybody from other religion is not accepted as being equal to a muslim in Islam etc. All these I presume contradicts most culture.
What the Koran says about:
Qur’an 5:17 “Verily they are disbelievers and infidels who say, ‘The Messiah, son of Mary, is God.’”
Qur’an 5:72 “They are surely infidels who blaspheme and say: ‘God is Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary.’ But the Messiah only said: ‘O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.’”
Qur’an 88:1 “Has the narration reached you of the overwhelming (calamity)? Some faces (Jews and Christians) that Day, will be humiliated, downcast, scorched by the burning fire, while they are made to drink from a boiling hot spring.”
Qur’an 9:29 “Fight those who do not believe in Allah or the Last Day, who do not forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, or acknowledge the Religion of Truth (Islam), (even if they are) People of the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the Jizyah tribute tax in submission, feeling themselves subdued and brought low.” [Another translation says:] “pay the tax in acknowledgment of our superiority and their state of subjection.”
Ishaq:552 “The Quraysh had put pictures in the Ka’aba including two of Jesus and one of Mary. Muhammad ordered that the pictures should be erased.”
Qur’an 5:14 “From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We made a covenant, but they forgot and abandoned a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, stirred up enmity and hatred among them to the Day of Doom. Soon will Allah show them the handiwork they have done.”
Qur’an 5:35 “Believers, fear Allah and seek the way to approach Him, striving hard, fighting Jihad with all your might in His Cause that you may be successful. As for the disbelievers [previously defined as Christians], if they had everything on earth, two times over, to give as ransom for the penalty of the Day of Doom, it would never be accepted from them. Theirs will be a painful torment. They will desire to get out of the fire, but they shall not be released from it. They shall have an everlasting torture.”
Qur’an 3:61 “If anyone disputes with you about Jesus being divine, flee them and pray that Allah will curse them.”
Qur’an 3:118 “O you who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, and Christians). They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin. Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths. What their hearts conceal is far worse. When they are alone, they bite off the very tips of their fingers at you in their rage. Say unto them: ‘Perish in your rage.’”
Qur’an 4:48 “Allah forgives not that partners [Christ as God] should be set up with Him; but He forgives anything else, to whom He please; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin most heinous.”
Qur’an 4:54 “Are they jealous and envious what Allah has given them of his bounty? But We had already given the house of Abraham the Book, and conferred upon them a grand kingdom. Some of them believed, and some of them averted their faces from him. And Hell is sufficient for their burning. Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire. As often as their skin is burnt and singed, roasted through, We shall change it for fresh skin, so that they may go on tasting the torment.”
Ishaq:243 “I heard the Apostle say: ‘Whoever wants to see Satan should look at Nabtal!’ He was a black man with long flowing hair, inflamed eyes, and dark ruddy cheeks…. Allah sent down concerning him: ‘To those who annoy the Prophet there is a painful doom.” [9:61] “Gabriel came to Muhammad and said, ‘If a black man comes to you his heart is more gross than a donkey’s.’”
Ishaq:144 “A rock was put on a slave’s chest. When Abu Bakr complained, they said, ‘You are the one who corrupted him, so save him from his plight.’ I will do so,’ said Bakr. ‘I have a black slave, tougher and stronger than Bilal, who is a heathen. I will exchange him. The transaction was carried out.”
Tabari II:11 “Shem, the son of Noah was the father of the Arabs, the Persians, and the Greeks; Ham was the father of the Black Africans; and Japheth was the father of the Turks and of Gog and Magog who were cousins of the Turks. Noah prayed that the prophets and apostles would be descended from Shem and kings would be from Japheth. He prayed that the African’s color would change so that their descendants would be slaves to the Arabs and Turks.”
Tabari II:21 “Ham [Africans] begat all those who are black and curly-haired, while Japheth [Turks] begat all those who are full-faced with small eyes, and Shem [Arabs] begat everyone who is handsome of face with beautiful hair. Noah prayed that the hair of Ham’s descendants would not grow beyond their ears, and that whenever his descendants met Shem’s, the latter would enslave them.”
Tabari IX:69 “Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah’s helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. WE FIGHT PEOPLE UNTIL THEY BELIEVE IN ALLAH. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will fight him forever in Allah’s Cause. KILLING HIM IS A SMALL MATTER TO US.”
Bukhari:V4B52N137 “The Prophet said, ‘Let the negro slave of Dinar perish. And if he is pierced with a thorn, let him not find anyone to take it out for him.... If he [the black slave] asks for anything it shall not be granted, and if he needs intercession [to get into paradise], his intercession will be denied.’”
WOMEN IN ISLAM
Tabari IX:113 “Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to BEAT THEM, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like DOMESTIC ANIMALS AND THEY POSSESS NOTHING THEMSELVES. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur’an.”
Tabari I:280 “Allah said, ‘It is My obligation to make Eve bleed once every month as she made this tree bleed. I must also make Eve stupid, although I created her intelligent.’ Because Allah afflicted Eve, all of the women of this world MENSTRUATE AND ARE STUPID.”
Muslim:B1N142 “‘O womenfolk, you should ask for forgiveness for I saw you in bulk amongst the dwellers of Hell.’ A wise lady said: Why is it, Allah’s Apostle, that women comprise the bulk of the inhabitants of Hell? The Prophet observed: ‘You curse too much and are ungrateful to your spouses. You lack common sense, fail in religion and rob the wisdom of the wise.’ Upon this the woman remarked: What is wrong with our common sense? The Prophet replied, ‘Your lack of common sense can be determined from the fact that the evidence of two women is equal to one man. That is a proof.’”
Qur’an 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death [by starvation] claims them.”
Bukhari:V3B48N826 “The Prophet said, ‘Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?’ The women said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘This is because of the deficiency of a woman’s mind.’”
Ishaq:584 “Tell the men with you who have wives: NEVER TRUST A WOMAN.”
Ishaq:469 “The Apostle said, ‘Every wailing woman lies except those who wept for Sa’d.’”
Tabari VIII:62/Ishaq:496 “Ali [Muhammad’s adopted son, son-in-law, and future Caliph] said, ‘Prophet, women are plentiful. You can get a replacement, easily changing one for another.’”
Qur’an 24:1 “(This is) a surah which We have revealed and made obligatory and in which We have revealed clear communications that you may be mindful. For the woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah. And let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.”
Qur’an 24:6 “And for those who launch a charge against their wives, accusing them, but have no witnesses or evidence, except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing four times) by Allah that he is the one speaking the truth.”
Bukhari:V4B52N50 “The Prophet said, ‘A single endeavor of fighting in Allah’s Cause is better than the world and whatever is in it.’”
Qur’an 9:88 “The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah’s Cause.”
Qur’an 9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”
Qur’an 9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.”
Ishaq:325 “Muslims, fight in Allah’s Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious.”
Qur’an 8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”
Qur’an 8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”
Ishaq:324 “He said, ‘Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.’”
Qur’an 9:14 “Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them.”
Ishaq:300 “I am fighting in Allah’s service. This is piety and a good deed. In Allah’s war I do not fear as others should. For this fighting is righteous, true, and good.”
Ishaq:587 “Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace.”
Qur’an 8:65 “O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding.”
Ishaq:326 “Prophet exhort the believers to fight. If there are twenty good fighters they will defeat two hundred for they are a senseless people. They do not fight with good intentions nor for truth.”
Bukhari:V4B52N63 “A man whose face was covered with an iron mask came to the Prophet and said, ‘Allah’s Apostle! Shall I fight or embrace Islam first?’ The Prophet said, ‘Embrace Islam first and then fight.’ So he embraced Islam, and was martyred. Allah’s Apostle said, ‘A Little work, but a great reward.’”
Bukhari:V4B53N386 “Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission. Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: ‘Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.’”
Muslim:C34B20N4668 “The Messenger said: ‘Anybody who equips a warrior going to fight in the Way of Allah is like one who actually fights. And anybody who looks after his family in his absence is also like one who actually fights.”
Qur’an 9:38 “Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah’s Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place.”
Qur’an 9:123 “Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.”
Qur’an 8:72 “Those who accepted Islam and left their homes to fight in Allah’s Cause with their possessions and persons, and those who gave (them) asylum, aid, and shelter, those who harbored them—these are allies of one another. You are not responsible for protecting those who embraced Islam but did not leave their homes [to fight] until they do so.” [Another translation reads:] “You are only called to protect Muslims who fight.”
Tabari IX:69 “Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah’s helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. We fight people until they believe in Allah. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will fight him forever in the Cause of Allah. Killing him is a small matter to us.”
Qur’an 47:4 “When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam.”
Ishaq:578 “Crushing the heads of the infidels and splitting their skulls with sharp swords, we continually thrust and cut at the enemy. Blood gushed from their deep wounds as the battle wore them down. We conquered bearing the Prophet’s fluttering war banner. Our cavalry was submerged in rising dust, and our spears quivered, but by us the Prophet gained victory.”
Ishaq:530 “Get out of his way, you infidel unbelievers. Every good thing goes with the Apostle. Lord, I believe in his word. We will fight you about its interpretations as we have fought you about its revelation with strokes that will remove heads from shoulders and make enemies of friends.”
Qur’an 8:12 “I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.”
Qur’an 8:57 “If you gain mastery over them in battle, inflict such a defeat as would terrorize them, so that they would learn a lesson and be warned.”
Ishaq:326 “If you come upon them, deal so forcibly as to terrify those who would follow, that they may be warned. Make a severe example of them by terrorizing Allah’s enemies.”
Qur’an 8:67 “It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughtered in the land.”
Ishaq:588 “When the Apostle descends on your land none of your people will be left when he leaves.”
Tabari IX:42 “We have been dealt a situation from which there is no escape. You have seen what Muhammad has done. Arabs have submitted to him and we do not have the strength to fight. You know that no herd is safe from him. And no one even dares go outside for fear of being terrorized.”
Ishaq:326 “Allah said, ‘No Prophet before Muhammad took booty from his enemy nor prisoners for ransom.’ Muhammad said, ‘I was made victorious with terror. The earth was made a place for me to clean. I was given the most powerful words. Booty was made lawful for me. I was given the power to intercede. These five privileges were awarded to no prophet before me.’”
Ishaq:327 “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”
Qur’an 7:3 “Little do you remember My warning. How many towns have We destroyed as a raid by night? Our punishment took them suddenly while they slept for their afternoon rest. Our terror came to them; Our punishment overtook them.”
Ishaq:510 “When the Apostle looked down on Khaybar he told his Companions, ‘O Allah, Lord of the Devils and what into error they throw, and Lord of the winds and what they winnow, we ask Thee for the booty of this town and its people. Forward in the name of Allah.’ He used to say this of every town he raided.”
Bukhari:V5B59N512 “The Prophet offered the Fajr Prayer [Prayer of Fear] near Khaybar when it was still dark. He said, ‘Allahu-Akbar!’ [Allah is Greatest] Khaybar is destroyed, for whenever we approach a hostile nation to fight, then evil will be the morning for those who have been warned.’ Then the inhabitants came out running on their roads. The Prophet had their men killed; their children and woman were taken as captives.”
Bukhari:V9B87N127 “The Prophet said, ‘I have been given the keys of eloquent speech and given victory with terror.’”
Ishaq:517 “Khaybar was stormed by the Apostle’s squadron, fully armed, powerful and strong. It brought certain humiliation with Muslim men in its midst. We attacked and they met their doom. Muhammad conquered the Jews in fighting that day as they opened their eyes to our dust.”
Tabari VIII:116/Ishaq:511 “So Muhammad began seizing their herds and their property bit by bit. He conquered home by home. The Messenger took some people captive, including Safiyah and her two cousins. The Prophet chose Safiyah for himself.”
Qur’an 33:60 “Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. Then they will not be able to stay as your neighbors for any length of time. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy—a fierce slaughter—murdered, a horrible murdering.”
Tabari VIII:143 “In this year a twenty-four man raiding party led by Shuja went to the Banu Amir. He launched a raid on them and took camels and sheep. The shares of booty came to fifteen camels for each man. Also a raid led by Amr went to Dhat. He set out with fifteen men. He encountered a large force whom he summoned to Islam. They refused to respond so he killed all of them.”
Bukhari:V4B52N256 “The Prophet passed by and was asked whether it was permissible to attack infidels at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, ‘Their women and children are from them.’”
Ishaq:580 “Our strong warriors obey his orders to the letter. By us Allah’s religion is undeniably strong. You would think when our horses gallop with bits in their mouths that the sounds of demons are among them. The day we trod down the unbelievers there was no deviation or turning from the Apostle’s order. During the battle the people heard our exhortations to fight and the smashing of skulls by swords that sent heads flying. We severed necks with a warrior’s blow. Often we have left the slain cut to pieces and a widow crying alas over her mutilated husband. ’Tis Allah, not man we seek to please.”
Want me to go on?
|Topic ||Re: Muslim Schools
|Author ||Maureen Davies
|Date Created ||04/03/2005 23:31:20
|Message ||I agree with most of what David Greenwood says. However, as I stated in another discussion, I believe that Multifaith schools are the answer, and in articular, multifaith beliefs being taught in the schools.
There is one God with many paths to heaven. Muslims may interpret God differently to Christians, but God remains the ONE above all,- een by the name of Allah.