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Original Message
Forum Muslim Children 
Topic Faith-based Schools 
Author Iftikhar 
Date Created 19/05/2005 21:42:37 
Message Established 1981
London School of Islamics
An Educational Trust
63 Margery Park Road London E7 9LD
Email: info@londonschoolofislamics.org.uk
www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk
Tel/Fax: 0208 555 2733 / 07817 112
Faith-based Schools

The education secretary angers secular groups by pledging £500m to rebuild faith-based schools, including only two Muslim schools. There are over half a million Muslim children in British schools where bilingualism and Islamic Identity is totally neglected. In history lessons, Muslim contributions to European learning and culture are never mentioned. Only three percent of Muslim children are in Muslim schools.

Islam does not believe in integration but encourages participation and feel responsibility in the British society. There is no question of either integration or assimilation. Muslim community must participate and fight for the rights granted by the state. It is not asking for any favour. Muslim community does not hate British values, they hate British policies. British needs to recognize and acknowledge that Muslim values do not pose a threat to the strategic values of Western society. We all need dialogue at all levels. It is possible to find common ground on the basis of respect for difference and a toleration of others. Muslim schools can play a vibrant part in British society. There is a huge desire for Muslim schools within the community. Studies show that 84% agree that there should be a choice for the Muslims. Muslim community should compel the state to provide the same educational provision as it does for other religions. There is a proposal under which parents would be able to demand the creation of a whole new institution, run by a private company. Money would follow the pupil, so that unpopular schools would be close down

A Muslim school is an institution which is established to mold a child into an Islamic personality and provide the educational needs of our children. One of the primary aims of Muslim school is to make a person a good citizen, some one who respects others, values other peopleís views and lives as a peaceful and legal citizen of the country. Tolerance and harmony are Islamic virtues and Muslim schools put more emphasis to appreciate and respect other cultures. In a Muslim school, the pupils are coming from home to home. Muslim schools are the solution to racial tensions, not part of the problem. Research shows that children perform better when they are in a familiar social setting. Muslim schools certainly give Muslim children an atmosphere in which they can grow and excel. Muslim schools provide a vital bridge in allowing children from the Muslim community to succeed in adult life. The success of a Muslim school is the notion that no child is ever regarded as a failure.

There are hundreds of state as well as Church schools where Muslim pupils are in majority and all such schools should be converted to Muslim community schools.
Iftikhar Ahmad


 
      
Responses
Topic Re: Faith-based Schools 
Author Mo 
Date Created 20/05/2005 09:31:23 
Message More segregation?

Do you expect or want people live and work separately from other races their whole lives?

Iftikhar, did you go to a muslim school? If you it certainly did not teach you how to spell.


 
 
 
Topic Re: Faith-based Schools 
Author Diderot 
Date Created 25/05/2005 03:41:14 
Message I think ALL faith based schools should be discouraged.Whether they be Christian,Jew, Moslem, Buddhist or whatever.
Failing that, no financial support from taxpayers should be given to them. They are an anachronism in a modern society. If state schools need improving , fine,it is still a lot better option than supporting the failed sham of institutionalised religious instruction.
Education should encompass a wide and diverse range of views and opinions. I wonder how many religious based schools display the evidence for their own particular beliefs or display the evidence against their particular beliefs? That would only be fair, wouldn`t it? We see the dumbing down practised by some in the United States by trying to teach creation as a Science. I wouldn`t mind so much if both points of view were taught, giving proper Scientific examples.Religion does not stand scrutiny, so believers are never encouraged to look for answers or superfriend forbid.........the truth!
You can say the world is round and that can be proved scientifically, by experimentation, by observation. Can you show by scientific deduction that yahweh, christ,buddha or allah exists? Not to my knowledge, however,unlike most religious practitioners of all faiths,I would happily look at any evidence anyone can produce.The whole idea of faith based education is built on a house of cards,a false premise if you like. What kind of a basis is that to educate a young ,impressionable mind? No, even the spurious arguments that religious educators produce are nothing but a tissue of lies and falsehoods. They say every child is more comfortable with their own kind, that kids learn better when their in familiar surroundings.That may be a consequence,however, they are not the reasons it is done. Children have been going away from kith and kin for years and learning extremely well, far from their comfort zones. No, if these snake oil salesmen had one shred of honesty,they would say "We don`t wan`t our young exposed to outside influences, until the religious and cultural imprinting has been completed", "We don`t wan`t our children exposed to contrary points of view" "We want to produce cloned copies of ourselves that will be easily controlled and have no original thought"
Religion thrives amongst ignorance. 
 
 
Topic Re: Faith-based Schools 
Author MaureenDavies 
Date Created 27/05/2005 01:14:16 
Message Diderot: I do not agree that secular schools are better for children. I am all for multi-faith schools. As well, I am still trying to understand why Iftikhar seeks Muslim schools in preferance to multifaith. Muslim schools would teach the children to be as biased as some of the people who write on this web-site.
In the past we have been slow to acknowledge other peoples faiths. Children would learn all aspects of religion and culture by having multi-faithfs taught.
Diderot mentions there is no proof for existence of Christ, Buddha etc., Their existence has been historically documented. God (Allah) are one and the same and reigns over us all. Admittedly there is no proof of God's existence, it is a matter of faith. 
 
 
Topic Re: Faith-based Schools 
Author Steven jackson 
Date Created 27/05/2005 12:41:45 
Message Is that right Maureen? You don`t agree that secular schools are better than Faith(multi-faith)based schools? Well, good for you! religion`s of all kinds are nothing more than an excuse for man to perpetrate his amusing little pecadilloes on his fellow man. Oh yes, it might be that moslems are percieved as the present "villans of the piece" however, it wasn`t historically, that long ago that it was christians who oppressed moslems and jews. No, the whole sham called religion, over history, dwarfs the amount of people killed in any other cause or war. So please don`t try to convince me that an education system with the accompanying baggage of thousands of years of atrocities and infamy is a good basis for the education of our young people. religious education of any kind is only concerned with trying to condemn as many bright, young minds as possible to the endless belt of mediocrity. religious education is only concerned with trying to clone little replicas of itself. The picture of a virus multiplying itself springs to mind.  
 
 
Topic Re: Faith-based Schools 
Author MaureenDavies 
Date Created 28/05/2005 00:47:54 
Message I would never be convinced that secular schools are better than multi-faith. Consider the problems of youth in today's society, drugs,hooliganism etc., Is it not through a turning away from religion? I have to agree with Iftikhar on that point. Giving children a grounding in religion is not just for the sake of religious knowledge, but to teach them a way of acceptable living that embraces all humankind.
I agree that religish teaching in the past has had all sorts of nasties attached to it. This was because each religion thought they were the right one and opposed all others. Hence the reason for now advocating multi-faith teaching.  
 
 
Topic Re: Faith-based Schools 
Author Diderot 
Date Created 30/05/2005 03:03:54 
Message Maureen, I think kids could be better educated in an old septic tank better than a faith based school. Why do people point at things like kids running wild , drugs, etc and immediately say that religion is the answer? Proper discipline, looking at the amount of violence on television, movies, video games and teaching children that along with their rights there are responsibilities to living in a civilised society. That, in my opinion would do much more than formalising Fairy Tales for children and giving good examples from books, that if read in their entirety, would be more in line with sitting in the Horror section of a bookshop than an inspirational section. Idiots have been getting the bible/koran/torah to say what THEY want it to say for thousands of years. No doubt, Ramses the Great interpreted the worship of Ra as indeed, we know Akhenaten did. Everyone who has a contrary point of view to Mr. Iftikhar`s religion that post on this site is quick to point out nasties in his version of Grimms fairy Tales. Want a few Christian examples? Theres plenty of them!
Just as a matter of interest Maureen, when do you think we should give this wonderful example from genesis to the kiddies?
19:8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

What about this one ? Thatís the way, send the woman and the baby into the wilderness with some bread and a water bottle, very moral and typically religious it seems.
21:14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.

Well, it would certainly make ME fear god. Great way to test a theory.
22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

This would be a great example of brotherly love. God knows how to get men fighting one another, he`s been doing it for thousands of years in one form or another! Just prefer one sacrifice over another, no problemo!
4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

All from the first book of the bible! Fancy that!

Now, when do you think we should start the classes?

As for you Mr. Iftikhar, why don`t you debate? You start a discussion thread, post an abject apologists statement and then run away not debate. Not good form old chap! If you make statements, you should be prepared to back them up.

 
 
 
Topic Re: Faith-based Schools 
Author MaureenDavies 
Date Created 31/05/2005 00:48:24 
Message Diderot et al: Regarding the statement you made about teaching children morals rather than religion: I agree teaching children by way of example would work, though it would still be better if supplemented with religion. The fact is though, that children without religion are much more likely to go astray. The moral foundations are not there.
The quotes from Genesis: I do not see any of these happenings different to what happens in today's world, for example, Cain killing Abel is equivalent to brother killing brother. Abraham sending the woman out into the wilderness can be equated with what some men do today.
The point in Genesis I am grappling with at present, is the beginning, ie. the creation. I believe in evolution, but think it was God directed, but I see there are many holes in this. (Paul Davis writes on this).
I am wondering what Iftikhar thinks from an Islamic perspective, about the statement I made that there is only one God,(Yahweh, Lord, Allah etc.,) over all, by whatever name. Also would not multi-faith schools be better for Muslim children, who would then learn about the religion of others? 
 
 
Topic Re: Faith-based Schools 
Author Diderot 
Date Created 01/06/2005 04:40:25 
Message My point is Maureen, that they are not wonderful examples the same as everybodies "holy" books. So why teach children based on their writings? look, until man gets over this silly superstitious need for a security blanket or get out of jail free card, man will never get ahead. 
 
 
Topic Re: Faith-based Schools 
Author Infidel 
Date Created 03/06/2005 10:38:29 
Message Oi coward. You posted this Urban 75. How about coming back and debating it, or did Allah not give you a spine?

 
 
 
Topic Re: Faith-based Schools 
Author The Reverend Peter M. Hawkins 
Date Created 29/07/2005 09:03:49 
Message Dear Iftikar,
you have sent me another inaccurate and ungrammatical rant about your favourite hobby horse. Let us get some of these matters straight.
When you are writing about an Office Holder, it is correct to use capitals for the name of the office, thus "Education Secretary" or more correctly, "The Secretary of State for Education".
There are no "British Schools" today, although there were in the 19 th Century. The Schools in this Kingdom are English "Maintained Schools" and Independent Schools. You are talking about English "Maintained Schools". Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland, which are separate from the Kingdom of England in this matter, have their own arrangements.
It is my experience as a School Governor of Church and County Maintained Schools in England, that Muslim Parents want their children to go to Church Schools if possible, and are not very happy about Muslim Schools. Their only experience is likely to have been that of Madrassahs, which are not impressive in their results. We have Muslim Governors in my school, but they find it difficult to get to meetings. I do not think that there would be enough Muslim Governors able to run all these Muslim Schools that you seem to want. There is no technical reason why there should not be more Muslims Schools, but there is little impetus for such a change.
The expansion of Islam into Europe is remembered by Europeans with dread. To combat it we had to develope new forms of defence, the Christian Military Orders, aping the methods of Islamic attack. The Hindus also had to do this, and the Sikhs are the result. Neither Hindus in India nor Christians here and elswhere in the Islamic world have ever said that Islam is "tolerant and harmonious" but that it is arrogant and merciless.
The Christian Tradition is always to translate and incoporate cultures, and that is being done in England as Muslims are integrated into our society. You are right to say that Islam does not do this.
There was some contribution by Muslims to European culture in the Middle Ages, but since that time the only contribution seems to have been that of fanatical terrorism - Assasins. It is open to Muslims like yourself to make clear what these good contributions may have been. There are a number of Christian Scholars of Islam, but not many Islamic Scholars of the Christian and European World, Tariq Ramadan is a shining example.
I can assure you that in the school where I am Governor Urdu is taught, and the various Muslim customs are observed. My Muslim sons, think this is rather funny. In a way I agree with them. What is the point of teaching a Moghul Camp Language which uses Hindi Grammar with some Persian Words and a Persian Script to children whose mother tongue is Punjabi? My youngest Muslim son, who is from Hyderabad, reads and writes in Hindi. It is much easier to read than Urdu. The other son reads and writes in Kurdish, Arabic and English.
Muslim values in my experience maintain that Muslims are better than every one else, despite the evidence to the contrary that Muslim States are the worst governed and the most oppressive. It is not suprising that non Muslims do not wish to see the spread of such Muslim negative values. Why else did you and the other Muslims leave the lands of Islam and come here to the Dar al'harb? You came because life here is better than in the Dar al'Islam.
Racism is common in Islam in my experience. Why else do we have so many mosques side by side in English cities? They belong to different racial groups. Intermarriage between such groups provokes mortal conflict.
Classism is also common in Islam, with Muslim states being run by a cultured elite, who carefully leave the poor ignorant.
Best wishes,
the Reverend Peter M. Hawkins.

 
 
 
Topic Re: Faith-based Schools 
Author Nick 
Date Created 30/07/2005 11:37:51 
Message iftikar
you made the statment:"One of the primary aims of Muslim school is to make a person a good citizen, some one who respects others, values other people’s views and lives as a peaceful and legal citizen of the country."

i would find it extremely helpful to understand how, as a non-Muslim, I should understand the following verses from the Qur’an:

Qur’an 2:191 “And kill them wherever you find and catch them. Drive them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter.”

Qur’an 33:60 “Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. Then they will not be able to stay as your neighbours for any length of time. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy—a fierce slaughter—murdered, a horrible murdering.”

Qur’an 5:33 “The punishment for those who wage war against Allah and His Prophet and make mischief in the land, is to murder them, crucify them, or cut off a hand and foot on opposite sides...their doom is dreadful. They will not escape the fire, suffering constantly.”

Qur’an 9:5 “When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”

Qur’an 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.”

Qur’an 4:94 “Believers, when you go abroad to fight wars in Allah’s Cause, investigate carefully, and say not to anyone who greets you: ‘You are not a believer!’ Coveting the chance profits of this life (so that you may despoil him). With Allah are plenteous spoils and booty.”

Qur’an 47:33 “Believers, obey Allah, and obey the Messenger. Do not falter; become faint-hearted, or weak-kneed, crying for peace.”

Qur’an 9:3 “Allah is not bound by any contract or treaty with non-Muslims, nor is His Apostle.”

Qur’an 9:12 “If they violate their oaths and break treaties, taunting you for your Religion, then fight these specimens of faithlessness.”

Qur’an 9:88 “The Messenger and those who believe him, strive hard and fight jihad with their wealth and lives (in Allah’s Cause).”

For brevity, I will not quote the Hadith which reveals the actual practice of Islam by Mohammed. I do, however, append a chronology early Islam, which details many of the known wars Islam was engaged in, almost all of which were offensive.

Consequently, I have to confess that, as a non-Muslim, it is not abundantly clear that Islam teaches peace. I do, however, begin to conceive how some young Muslim men, who are not youths (as you yourself described them), might accidentally assume that these verses mean what they say. I would welcome any clarification that the Qur’an provides which I, as a Christian, may have inadvertently missed. This will help me enormously in my relations with Muslims in our local community as well as the teaching I give to my church.

If, however, you are unable to provide the clarification, I will, reluctantly, be forced to conclude that either the Qur’an should not be considered the basis of Islamic thought, or that the statements you gave to the country are not entirely correct.



Chronology of early Islam

From 623 to 777, a span of 154 years, there are at least 83 military conflicts involving the Muslims.

• 570 - Birth of Muhammad in Mecca into the tribe of Quraish.
• 577 - Muhammad's mother dies
• 580 - Death of Abdul Muttalib, Muhammad's grandfather.
• 583 - First journey to Syria with a trading Caravan
• 595 - Muhammad marries Khadijah a rich widow several years older than him.
• 595 - Second journey to Syria
• 598 - His son, Qasim, is born
• 600 - His daughter, Zainab, is born
• 603 - His daughter, Um-e-Kalthum, is born
• 604 - His daughter, Ruqayya, is born
• 605 - Placement of Black Stone in Ka'aba.
• 605 - His daughter, Fatima, is born
• 610 - Mohammed, in a cave on Mt. Hira, hears the angel Gabriel tell him that Allah is the only true God.
• 613 - Muhammad's first public preaching of Islam at Mt. Hira. Gets few converts.
• 615 - Muslims persecuted by the Quraish.
• 619 - Marries Sau'da and Aisha
• 620 - Institution of five daily prayers
• 622 - Muhammad immigrates from Mecca to Medina, which was then called Yathrib, gets more converts.
• 623 - Battle of Waddan
• 623 - Battle of Safwan
• 623 - Battle of Dul-'Ashir
• 624 - Muhammad and converts begin raids on caravans to fund the movement.
• 624 - Zakat becomes mandatory
• 624 - Battle of Badr
• 624 - Battle of Bani Salim
• 624 - Battle of Eid-ul-Fitr and Zakat-ul-Fitr
• 624 - Battle of Bani Qainuqa'
• 624 - Battle of Sawiq
• 624 - Battle of Ghatfan
• 624 - Battle of Bahran
• 625 - Battle of Uhud. 70 Muslims are killed.
• 625 - Battle of Humra-ul-Asad
• 625 - Battle of Banu Nudair
• 625 - Battle of Dhatur-Riqa
• 626 - Battle of Badru-Ukhra
• 626 - Battle of Dumatul-Jandal
• 626 - Battle of Banu Mustalaq Nikah
• 627 - Battle of the Trench
• 627 - Battle of Ahzab
• 627 - Battle of Bani Quraiza
• 627 - Battle of Bani Lahyan
• 627 - Battle of Ghaiba
• 627 - Battle of Khaibar
• 628 - Muhammad signs treaty with Quraish.
• 630 - Muhammad conquers Mecca.
• 630 - Battle of Hunsin.
• 630 - Battle of Tabuk
• 632 - Muhammad dies.
• 632 - Abu-Bakr, Muhammad's father-in-law, along with Umar, begin a military move to enforce Islam in Arabia.
• 633 - Battle at Oman
• 633 - Battle at Hadramaut.
• 633 - Battle of Kazima
• 633 - Battle of Walaja
• 633 - Battle of Ulleis
• 633 - Battle of Anbar
• 634 - Battle of Basra,
• 634 - Battle of Damascus
• 634 - Battle of Ajnadin.
• 634 - Death of Hadrat Abu Bakr. Hadrat Umar Farooq becomes the Caliph.
• 634 - Battle of Namaraq
• 634 - Battle of Saqatia.
• 635 - Battle of Bridge.
• 635 - Battle of Buwaib.
• 635 - Conquest of Damascus.
• 635 - Battle of Fahl.
• 636 - Battle of Yermuk.
• 636 - Battle of Qadsiyia.
• 636 - Conquest of Madain.
• 637 - Battle of Jalula.
• 638 - Battle of Yarmouk.
• 638 - The Muslims defeat the Romans and enter Jerusalem.
• 638 - Conquest of Jazirah.
• 639 - Conquest of Khuizistan and movement into Egypt.
• 641 - Battle of Nihawand
• 642 - Battle of Rayy in Persia
• 643 - Conquest of Azarbaijan
• 644 - Conquest of Fars
• 644 - Conquest of Kharan.
• 644 - Umar is murdered. Othman becomes the Caliph.
• 647 - Conquest of the island of Cypress
• 644 - Uman dies and is succeeded by Caliph Uthman.
• 648 - Campaign against the Byzantines.
• 651 - Naval battle against the Byzantines.
• 654 - Islam spreads into North Africa
• 656 - Uthman is murdered. Ali become Caliph.
• 658 - Battle of Nahrawan.
• 659 - Conquest of Egypt
• 661 - Ali is murdered.
• 662 - Egypt falls to Islam rule.
• 666 - Sicily is attacked by Muslims
• 677 - Siege of Constantinople
• 687 - Battle of Kufa
• 691 - Battle of Deir ul Jaliq
• 700 - Sufism takes root as a sect of Islam
• 700 - Military campaigns in North Africa
• 702 - Battle of Deir ul Jamira
• 711 - Muslims invade Gibraltar
• 711 - Conquest of Spain
• 713 - Conquest of Multan
• 716 - Invasion of Constantinople
• 732 - Battle of Tours in France.
• 740 - Battle of the Nobles.
• 741 - Battle of Bagdoura in North Africa
• 744 - Battle of Ain al Jurr.
• 746 - Battle of Rupar Thutha
• 748 - Battle of Rayy.
• 749 - Battle of lsfahan
• 749 - Battle of Nihawand
• 750 - Battle of Zab
• 772 - Battle of Janbi in North Africa
• 777 - Battle of Saragossa in Spain

Now this kind of thing still continues today except instead of hordes of warriors we have a guild of assasins using cloakl an dagger methods to "blow" us up as we go about our daily business, no matter if that is going to work or just popping into town for a little bit of lunch and shopping.
I feel a new dark age will dawn onto the world if we let it and it will be islam that shall bring it forth!

 
 
 
Topic Re: Faith-based Schools 
Author Jackie 
Date Created 01/08/2005 01:26:38 
Message What devestates me about the whole thing is that all the atrocities,murders,etc, committed in the name of one religion or another were pointless. There is NO christ, yahweh, allah! So all those deaths were were done for nothing. It would be funny if it wasn`t so tragic!
I am a secular humanist, you would call me an atheist.A label, that after looking at the damage caused to the world in the name of religion, I am inordinately proud of!
Now, everyone is quite happy to trot out atrocities they see in the koran, well, I`m here to tell you that for every supposed horror story in the koran, I can trot out one for the torah or new testament. Reason being? They were all thought up by the atypical bronze age/iron age/dark age/middle age, savages! I probably shouldn`t have said that, it is an insult to many noble people who have been given that name by interfering god botherers!Who had been living the same way for thousands of years and then had "enlightenment" thrust upon them in the form of someones civilised belief system! I think they mostly take on board the gospel passages like Matthew 10:34 and one of the few passages of the bible that has actually come true, Matthew 10:35. You don`t hear those at Sunday School very often, just the cute bunny and motherhood ones. No, all religions, especially the abrahamic ones stand condemned!
Mainly, for gulling millions of people for thousands of years that they are the way of peace. They are the way of despair and ignorance. No better than a way for charlatans to hold power over others.
P.S. I would quite happily look and could be convinced of the veracity of the above deities............if anyone can produce independent, varifiable proof, I would be more than happy to look at it. Thats where us Atheists are a little different to you god botherers, we look at ALL the available documentation with an open mind. I do know open mind and religion are usually mutually exclusive, however, do try, you may be surprisde at the results! 
 
 
Topic Re: Faith-based Schools 
Author The Khyberman 
Date Created 01/08/2005 02:52:05 
Message Jackie

I think I love you!



The Khyberman 
 
 
Topic Re: Faith-based Schools 
Author Jackie 
Date Created 03/08/2005 00:56:57 
Message Just trying to shine a little light into a tunnel of dark madness K. You know what really scares the bejesus out of me? They all want Education Systems based on this lunacy! We see the results of people going to some of these schools recently, great success! Don`t kid yourself though, there would be christian and jewish nutters feeding young minds with their own brand of mindless bile. You only have to look at some of those looney southern baptist church sites! I keep saying it, religion is like giving a loaded gun to a five year old, eventually it is going to go off and perforate someone. While most of the people who contribute to this site could be trusted to not teach the kiddies that god is everything, so anything that is done in the "glory" of that god is Ok, how do you know the next lot or the lot five years from now are going to see things the same way? No, you would have to guarantee that all the people in charge of these "Education Facilities" from then on, would have to have the same ideals. So, you would have to hope that a mullah omah, ian paisley or a rasputin doesn`t suddenly get control of the reins. Given religion`s antecedents, I for one, don`t think they deserve the benefit of the doubt!
 
 
 
Topic Re: Faith-based Schools 
Author MaureenDavies 
Date Created 10/09/2005 16:22:10 
Message The Khyberman, Jackie et al: I believe you have it wrong about religious schools. I would never support secular schools. Children need to have some morals instilled, and they will never get it from secularism. I agree there are extremists in just aboutall religions, but there are also extremists in secular life.
Religious based education is not just about teaching religion, it is about teaching morals and about anti-bigotry. It is important that parents also play a part in this, it cannot all be left to the education system. 
 
 
Topic Re: Faith-based Schools 
Author JK 
Date Created 03/01/2006 14:25:56 
Message Peace and tolerance my ass!
Your so called religion teaches children to hate all non muslims. You are a complete bonehead. 
 
 
Topic Re: Faith-based Schools 
Author jd 
Date Created 06/01/2006 12:21:42 
Message maureen ...

do you honestly believe that you cannot instill morals in a secular society ? moreso ... are your ideas of 'morality' dictated by religion then - if so, you obviously frown upon sex before marriage and homosexuality and you believe that this 'morality' should be taught to our school kids ? 
 
 
Topic Re: Faith-based Schools 
Author Maureen Davies 
Date Created 25/01/2006 03:54:17 
Message JK,jd et al: Religion does not teach children, as you suggest, to hate non-Muslims. Quite the opposite in fact. When I spoke of morality, I was speaking more about the morality of accepting others for what they are, avoiding wars at all costs etc., rather than about personal morality.
Secularists in the main, do not have the same ethical values. I would be more assured that a child of mine was learning these values at a religious school, than at a secularist one. The personal values you refer to, starts at home, and I guess there is a wide opinion on what is right or wrong. 
 
 
Topic Re: Faith-based Schools 
Author jd 
Date Created 26/01/2006 10:04:28 
Message so maureen - you are suggesting that morality is derived from religious beliefs - so you are saying that your morality is dictated by your personal religion, so therefore it is perfectly acceptable for religious persons to hate homosexuals (for example) because their religion teaches them that that is the moral thing to do ...

all religions teach intolerance to others, the premise of all religions is that non-believers will go to hell - how is that teaching tolerance ??


my morality is not blinkered by religious concepts and i think that it is perfectly reasonable to expect a secular society to have good moral standards given that the y have some form of guidance - namely the love and attention of decent parents - one thing that seems to be declining in modern society unfortunately 
 
 
Topic Re: Faith-based Schools 
Author MaureenDavies 
Date Created 26/01/2006 22:44:19 
Message jd: The whole point in the secular society according to your reasoning, is that the morals depend on children having decent parents. I dissagree again. What if the parents are not moral? Then it follows that the children will not be either.
In general, I find the more compassionate people are those who have a religion, even if it is not the one to which I belong. The more we learn about others religions, and the more accepting of differences, the more peaceful life will be.
As for our gay community, not all christians are anti-gay. I for one am not. I have liberal views on all such matters, and am constantly in debate about them with some f the church members. I have noticed that some of my secular friends are very homophobic. It seems to be more of a right wing attitude than anything to do with religion. 
 
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