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Topic Help And Pointer Please 
Author Curious English Boy 
Date Created 29/05/2005 23:40:10 
Message I stumbled across this site by accident after trying to get help from the Council For Mosques site (they ignored me and never offered any help or support) and am hoping that the legitimate muslims who visit here will be more welcoming and helpful, so here goes......

I am interested in converting to the Islamic faith, but after talking with a friend - she is muslim - I feel that there are some points that I need to get more information about to see how they fit with my own personal beliefs, and whether or not I could feel comfortable within a religious teaching that may not agree with my thoughts.

The main areas - initially - that I have for concern are about Islam's attitude towards homosexuality, and also the notion of God punishing people for their (supposed) wrong-doings both in this life and also when the day of reckoning comes, and also how Islam perceives non-believers who live otherwise model lives.

Also, if anyone could give me some guidence as to which other websites would be useful for me to read and also any centres/information points in West Yorkshire which I could maybe contact to talk about my thoughts and my aim to convert to Islam, that would be very helpful and much appreciated.

Cheers in advance 
      
Responses
Topic Re: Help And Pointer Please 
Author Free Way 
Date Created 02/06/2005 18:15:30 
Message About homosexuality:
Qur’an 52:21 “Those who believe and whose families follow them in Faith, to them shall We join their offspring: Nor shall We deprive them of their works: each individual is in pledge for his deeds. And We shall provide fruit and meat, anything they desire. There they shall pass from hand to hand a (wine) cup free of frivolity, free of all taint of vanity or cause of sin. Round about them will serve, (devoted) to them, young boy servants of their own (handsome) as well-guarded pearls. They will advance to each other, drawing near, engaging in mutual enquiry. They will say: ‘We used to be afraid (of the punishment) in the midst of our families, but Allah has been good to us, and has delivered us from the torment of the Scorching Wind and Breath of Fire.”

Punishment and Hell:
Punishment and hell is the Qur’an’s most repeated theme—over 1,000 times. The Qur’an says: “Allah cursed the [Christian] infidels and prepared a blazing fire for them. They will live forever in it and will find no savior.” “Their faces will be turned on the fire as if they were on a spit.” “‘O Allah,’ Muhammad pleaded, ‘give them a double dose of punishment and put a grievous curse upon them.” “Their requital will be Hell because they disbelieved and mocked My signs and My Messenger.” “There will be boiling water for them, and cold clammy, fetid drink to taste, and other similar torments. They will roast in fire.” “They will wear iron collars and chains around their necks, they will be dragged through boiling water, and then burnt.” “The food of sinners in Hell is like pitch. It will fume in the belly, cutting their intestines to shreds.” “Seize them and drag them into the depths of Hell,” Allah says. “Then pour the torment of scalding water over them.”
Bukhari:V1B22N28 “The Prophet said: ‘I was shown the Hell Fire and the majority of its dwellers were women who are disbelievers or ungrateful.’ When asked what they were ungrateful for, the Prophet answered, ‘All the favors done for them by their husbands.’”

Women in Islam:
Bukhari:V3B48N826 “The Prophet said, ‘Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?’ The women said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘This is because of the deficiency of a woman’s mind.’”
Ishaq:496 “Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.’ So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, ‘Tell the Apostle the truth.’”
Qur’an 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death [by starvation] claims them.” 
 
 
Topic Re: Help And Pointer Please 
Author Free Way 
Date Created 02/06/2005 18:45:14 
Message Dear English Lad

It is nice to know someone wants to find God but you will be horribly mistaken into thinking that Islam is the way. Islam's sole message is to kill the infidels (non-believers, especially Jews and Christians) and wipe them out to the last. It is filled with violence from beginning to end, all a direct result Muhammad's greed for money, power and sex. If you read the scriptures I posted earlier you will know that I am correct in saying this. Please use www.prophetofdoom.net as a reference for the Islam religion.

I'm afraid that no matter how desperately people want God to accept homosexuality they will never get what they want. Yahweh has said countless times over that it is an abomination for He did not create us with unnatural desires. He created man for woman and woman for man; the very fact that we can only have children through a natural relationship is enough to say the homosexuality is not from our Creator. The Devil (Lucifer) has lied to the whole of Mankind by saying that one can be born homosexual. This is a lie for it is our choice to commit acts of homosexuality or not. Yahweh has given us a wonderful gift called free-will, we make our own decisions, some which reap great rewards and others lead to destruction.

But thankfully through the work of Yahshua (Jesus) who died for us and took upon Himself the punishment we deserve has rescued us from the bondage of sin, we can receive this wonderful gift only if we receive His Love into our hearts, believe in Him and follow Him. Every other religion says that your works will get you to heaven but only through Yahshua is the way to our heavenly Father by just accepting His gracious gift of eternal life. Salvation is for all Mankind, Yahweh has invited us all, but only if we come to Yahshua and receive it with open arms and in repentance.

Please do not be deceived into into believing that Islam is the answer to your prayers. Allah is Satan disguised and Muhammad died never to rise from the grave. Allah says he hates Muslims who do not fight in His Cause of killing unbelievers, so if you do not kill and fight in his Cause then you are a hypocrite in Allah's eyes.

I pray that the true God will reveal Himself to you, that He will show His awesome loving kindness to you, that you will come to know Him and find peace in Him.

Free Way 
 
 
Topic Re: Help And Pointer Please 
Author Diderot 
Date Created 03/06/2005 01:27:34 
Message It proves that P T Barnum had it right.
There still IS one born every minute!
Look mate, get real, live a good life, enjoy yourself and don`t try and find contentment in a storybook belief system - that goes for anyones storybook. 
 
 
Topic Re: Help And Pointer Please 
Author Free Way 
Date Created 03/06/2005 20:23:06 
Message Diderot

Thanks for your short and simple reply.

I quite enjoyed reading the story of P.Barnum and D.Hannum. Apparently it was his competitor D.Hannum who coined the term "there's a sucker born every minute", and I can see why you referenced it. It goes on about a person called Hull who carved a giant out of rock, had it buried in secret and about a year later he got labourers to dig a well for him. News spread like wild-fire about the "finding", it was moved to an exhibition center where people payed to see the fossilsed giant, though some thought it was a stone statue. Hull sold two-thirds interest to Hannum who was now also involved in the syndicate. Obviously Barnum took a liking to the giant because he ran a circus and had a keen interest in "freak" stuff. Barnum made an offer to buy it but Hannum turned it down. Barnum decided to create his own giant, claimed to of bought it from Hannum, replaced it with Hannum's and claimed that Hannum was displaying a fake one. Thousands of people went to pay and see Barnum's giant, and that's when Hannum said "there's a sucker born every minute" after seeing so many people fooled into going to see Barnum's giant because he still thought he had the original and that Barnum's was a fake. A court case followed because Hannum was upset Barnum called his a fake. Hannum eventually confessed to the whole giant thing being a hoax and the judge ruled that neither won because the whole story had been a fake. Hannum was lost in history while people still think Barnum called Hannum a "sucker" when it was actually Hannum meaning to say that the masses were fooled into believing the giant story.

Now i can see why it fits the situation because you are saying that it doesn't matter who displays the "giant" because its a con anyway.

People will always seek for a "Divine" person because it is in our nature to search for the Being who created us. The reason for this is because, firstly, it is God given and, secondly, is that we realise that the human race is in a shambles.

I find it incredibly hard not to believe the Scriptures because if you read it you will find so much depth in it and outside proof that everything that was said in it is true. People tried to say that believers edited it to prove that prophecy was fulfilled, but when they discovered the Dead Sea scrolls they found it hadn't been altered for thousands of years. Not only that but it is written so perfectly and without a single contradiction, even though it had over forty different authors. Obvioulsy the best way to read it is in Hewbrew and Greek because through translation has lost some of its meaning, plus with translation certain passages have been misinterpreted because words have more meaning in Hewbrew and Greek than in English. Even the Romans had records of the works of Christ as proof of what He did and performed.

Even in my own expereince I have been in His presence, I know what it is like to talk with Him. I have not seen Him physically but I hear His Spirit talk within me and gives me answers to everything I ask. He is such a loving God but all people do is snigger at Him and continue is their selfish ways. The situation in the world is of our own turning away from Him and very much deserved. We have turned our backs so on the very One who gave us life. We blame the world's problems on Him but fail to it is a result of our own actions. God will not force you into anything but will let you choose because He clearly stated within His Word of the consequences of our actions, if we sin we will reap destructiona but if we please Him will reap great rewards.

I never quite know what it means when people say someone should get a life. Does this mean I should be an open-minded, proabortionist, homosexual-tolerant darwinist? Firstly life begins at conception; abortion is murder. Don't need to say much about homosexuality because the vileness of it speaks for itself. And there is not even a shred of evidence that supports the hoax theory of evolution. Even Darwin said it is based on the "assumption" of a spontaneous beginning without the need of a creator. Or does it mean I should go out on a Friday night and get into a fight because someone stepped on my toe or my football team happened to lose? Maybe it means I should sit back on a weekend night and enjoy the likes of Phoenix Nights entertaining me? I thoroughly do enjoy Phoenix Nights though.

Just look at the youth of Britain's behaviour: having a child at 11 years old with the 2 older teen sisters getting pregnant too because of their jealousy for their younger sibling, anti-social disorders handed out alomst every week, 7 year old killing his baby sibling, a hooded youth yob killing an old folk, etc. Their behaviour is a direct result of their parents behaviour. It wasn't this bad when the UK was a "God-fearing" nation. When the States abolished prayer in their schools, what happened? Columbine happened, as well as 9/11. Something the UK should take note of.

What you say is true, except the storybook part. This "storybook" gave me life and a reason to live. Now I share it with you. 
 
 
Topic Re: Help And Pointer Please 
Author Curious English Lad 
Date Created 03/06/2005 21:04:58 
Message Free Way, I appreciate your posts, but feel that they are incredibly biased, and though the quotes from the Qu'ran are probably true, I was more interested in how those areas I raised are put into every day life. I am not gay, but believe that it is not wrong, and was hoping that this would be backed up.

So, why no replies from the muslims who visit this forum? I am a little dismayed at the lack of support being offered, both here and on the previous board I mentioned. I am not here as a trouble maker, my interest is genuine, and would like someone to please point me to further information. 
 
 
Topic Re: Help And Pointer Please 
Author Iftikhar 
Date Created 03/06/2005 21:07:08 
Message Salaam

London School of Islamics is an educational Trust. It's aim is to make British public, institutions and media aware of the issues of the Muslim community in the field of education and possible solutions.

There is no shirtage of Islamic web sites. Please visit Google and I am sure that you will find a web site which can help you to understand islam. I am not a religious scholar. My area of interest is education of the Muslim children.  
 
 
Topic Re: Help And Pointer Please 
Author MaureenDavies 
Date Created 04/06/2005 06:16:04 
Message Curious English Lad: Although I am a practising Christian (or try to be), I too see nothing wrong in homosexuality. I think our church elders in the past have put too much emphasis on the so-called "abomination" of this.
I agree with Free Way to a point, that it is a choice, but by the same token, if a male has these inclinations by the age of seventeen, it is an almost certainty he will be gay for life. If you read up on Freud's theory of how one becomes homosexual, it is not so much of a choice. Psychological re-framing of homosexuality that was prevalent years ago, had disastrous results for those individuals who underwent the process.
If this issue is important to you for finding a religion, I think you will have trouble. Both Islam and Christianity per se reject homosexuality. Like birth control, it is something that each person has to work out for themself. For me as a non-homosexual, I can live with the attitude of my church, because I believe the one God oversees all of us, no matter what our beliefs are.
I wish you luck with your search. 
 
 
Topic Re: Help And Pointer Please 
Author Free Way 
Date Created 04/06/2005 18:12:30 
Message Lad.

I do understand when you say biased because yes I do tend to take a one-sided approach.

You won't find Muslims nor Christians supporting homosexuality. It is not really referenced in the Quran but the Bible has many passages condemning the behaviour even going as far as saying that lustful thinking is sinful.

The Bible has many verses both in the Old and New Testament that condemns homosexuality. These are just two passages of a whole list that condemn homosexuality, and other indecent sexual acts and behaviour.

"And a man who lies with a male as he lies with a woman: both of them have done an abomination, they shall certainly be put to death, their blood is upon them." Leviticus 20:13 Biblically speaking, anybody who commits an act of homosexuality must be stoned to death.

"Do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the reign of Elohim? Do not be deceived. Neither those who whore, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor greedy of gain, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers shall inherit the reign of Elohim." 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Some passage, hey? Today's society in a nutshell. 
 
 
Topic Re: Help And Pointer Please 
Author Free Way 
Date Created 04/06/2005 18:21:38 
Message Maureen.

Within the Scriptures Yahweh clearly says homosexuality is not from Him, it is even written in the New Testament. Our elders have not placed enough emphasis on it but have been too lenient. I encourage you to read Romans chapter one. A great reference website for finding Yahweh is www.eliyah.com

Yahweh's Word is infallible and will always be that, it is a sin for Man to alter (water-down) His Word. Homosexuals continually try force the Church, especially the Roman Catholic Church, to accept their ways, grant them permission to allow it and even recognise same-sex marriages. Sadly for them, it won't be done.

I come from a town (not UK) that has a Gay festival every year, on one occasion they went as far as waiting outside the youth school (children ages 6 to 13), handing them pamphlets with pictures of gay sex, and with condoms attached. The whole situation was watered-down to protect the gay rights movement so never hit newspapers. Not even in a decent society is this behaviour acceptable, but for some reason homosexuals can force their immoral ways on the youth, in turn recruiting future sodomites. Even if it was straight sex it would not be acceptable. It's not acceptable in any soceity to encourage sexual behaviour, its' up to the parents to teach the birds and the bees. When my daughter grows up it will be me and my wife who will teach her about sex, or hope that when she does hear about it from other sources that Yahweh is watching over her.

Then there's Islam... 
 
 
Topic Re: Help And Pointer Please 
Author Maureen Davies 
Date Created 07/06/2005 00:58:54 
Message Free Way: I accept that Paul's letter to the Romans decries homosexuality, (H). The old testament is less clear.According to Atkinson, D. R, (1979) "Homosexuality in the Christian Fellowship", H was mentioned in the old testament in the context of idolatory, and he asserts that the condemnation did not go beyond that. I could say more about Lot in Genesis, but do not want to get off the point.
H in other cultures was widely accepted in ancient times. Plato in the dialogues (around 328 BC)speaks of it as a natural happening in Greek society.
Apart from any biblical reference and significance, as a Christian, I find it necessary to consider and appreciate others differences. It seems a shame that the church is still keeping people admitting to H out. I firmly believe that this should and will eventually change.
The question remains, how do the people with H inclinations manage their religious life if they are shunned by the churches? I believe they are entitled to be in the churches the same as anyone else.
I too lived in a city (not in the UK) for many years that has a big Mardi Gras, and I used to think it was a wonderful event for gay people to get together and celebrate their sexuality. (Sorry if I have shocked you).
Curios English Boy: You have opened a can of worms. Thank-you for doing it. 
 
 
Topic Re: Help And Pointer Please 
Author Umer 
Date Created 09/06/2005 16:32:26 
Message Hi English Boy,

I will be more than happy to reply to your queries which are quite common ones but which are all too often misunderstood. The important thing is to take with a pinch of salt these people who have never studied Islamic history, who rant and rave that Islam's sole message is to kill the infidels.

If you want I will post my reply up here or alternatively contact me at wayfarer110403@yahoo.co.uk 
 
 
Topic Re: Help And Pointer Please 
Author MaureenDavies 
Date Created 10/06/2005 00:42:47 
Message Umer: It is a mistake to slot all Non-Muslims into one category. I for one, do not think that Islam's sole message is to "kill the infidels". You are assuming that people on this web-site have not studied Islamic history, and this is an assumption that is wrong. Some of us have studied it in detail and in fact know more about it than many Muslims. Because I am not a follower of Islam, does not mean to say that I am not knowledgable about it. I would encourage Christians, Muslims, and folk from other faiths to study all religions. 
 
 
Topic Re: Help And Pointer Please 
Author Umer 
Date Created 10/06/2005 22:57:45 
Message Maureen,

I was not referring to all non-Muslims; in fact I have noticed your fair comments elsewhere. I in no way refer generally to all non-Muslims when I referred to 'these people'; I'm simply referring to just that: 'these people' who have posted such ridiculously absurd comments that have been cut-and-pasted from some missionary website. Internet research is very shallow - anyone can say what he or she likes, without any peer review. This is against the spirit of Islam, Science and Rationale which demands knowledge based on certainty.

I'm expecting a barrage of abuse and refutations for that any time now...

 
 
 
Topic Re: Help And Pointer Please 
Author Diderot 
Date Created 11/06/2005 12:27:15 
Message Thats fine,obviously most of you people are happy with your way of life, thats fine. I just don`t think it should be allowed to teach children OF ANY FAITH a biased and unsubstantiated point of view, without them being given the opposing side of the story. I don`t care what you say, thats not education, thats indoctrination. I mean, what proof is there for the exodus from Egypt, eh? You would think there would be heiroglyphs everywhere for such a momentous event. What about secular verification for the existence of christ? A few obscure references from people like Josephus to a jesus or a christos, the names at that time was as common as muck.One thing the Romans were very good at was recording history, any reference to the eclipse that was supposed to have happened at the time of the crucifiction? I don`t think so. The biblical flood, there has been fables of apocalyptic floods since ancient Summeria. Are children, in faith based schools, asked to inquire as to the evidence for these so called truths? No, it`s written in our own particular version of Grimms fairy tales, shut up and accept it. By all means, if it hurts no one else, live your life anyway you want, however, at least give the next generation a chance to decide for themselves.
Oh and before anyone says that if people had a religious upbringing there would be less trouble, I ask you to consider that 90% of the US prison population profess a belief in one imaginary superfriend or another. If you are going to be good, you are going to be good regardless of whether you believe in a deity or not, also vica versa.  
 
 
Topic Re: Help And Pointer Please 
Author MaureenDavies 
Date Created 12/06/2005 05:05:52 
Message Diderot: You say that children should be taught the opposing side I presume you mean (of religion). That IS exactly what they are being taught in schools today. Religious instruction has dropped off in a frightening way.
My plea is for children to be taught about all faiths and not just christianity.
On another thread on this web-site, you stated that Judaism, Christianity and Islam all have the same God, and you are right, - they do. That is one reason I see the need (as a Christian) to be more accepting and friendly to followers of Islam and Judaism. We have that belief in one God, sowe can from that great starting point, look for more similarities, rather than differences in our belief.
Having a belief in God is having faith, and there is no other way to describe it. The biblical characters and events you questioned as being real or fiction, all have some documentary evidence. I wish I could convince you. 
 
 
Topic Re: Help And Pointer Please 
Author Diderot 
Date Created 13/06/2005 02:16:36 
Message Maureen, they are all the same in the fact that they spring from a common (fantasy)ancestor. They all are supposed to have abrahamic origins. You know that. Prior to that it was Baal,etc,etc. The one thing they have in common is they are all derivatives of solar worship, they are, in fact, all Sun gods.
Maureen, for thousands of years, missionaries or their troublemaking ilk have known that the easiest way to convert the locals is not to say you lot have got it all wrong, no, much easier to just incorporate the local pantheon on into yours and say they were the same all along! There are examples in Ireland that show statues of celtic gods having a slight remodelling and then being presented as christian saints.hercules, saint patrick, dionysus, bacchus all have their parallels in whichever fantasy storybook you want to look at.I gave up years ago trying to make believers see reason, they either do that themselves or not. I will say this though, don`t you think, in your heart of hearts, that if there was authoratitive, secular proof of ANYONES fantasy bedtime stories, that at the very least, the loony right wing christian godbotherers in the United States would be shouting it from the roof tops?
I do not hide the fact that if I had my way, the only references to religion in schools would be the examples of mythologies that people used to believe in because they couldn`t explain something. Well children, do you know that people used to believe that a man could turn water into wine or feed thousands with seven loaves and five fishes? How much sillier is that than hercules battling a minotaur? same amount of proof for both. You say that schools have gone away from teaching religion, good, more power to them. I believe the mistake that you make is that you equate lack of moral fibre, discipline or behaviour with a lack of religious education. My belief is religious doctrine is being replaced with a doctrine just as stupid and pointless and that is the doctrine of, if it feels good, do it! Don`t worry about your responsibilities, you have rights!Do what you like, someone will pick up after you.Just start teaching children that every action has a consequence and that they are responsible for the actions they take. Children can be brought up properly without some fantasy carrot and stick being held over them. Maureen, you said at the end of your last post that you wishh you could convince me, you can. I haven`t got a closed mind, I could be convinced if you could show me some indepent, verifiable proof, not the fevered rantings of some charlatans who got together to write some idiocy in what is nothing more than a contradictory piece of claptrap that passes for the book that some people belive they and others should live their life by. Let me give you an example :-
This from 2 Samuel.
24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
This from 1 Chronicles.
21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
One may say, poor Israel! satan and god against them. Would you like a few more? Theres plenty of them.
You believe people should live their lives according to this tripe and other storybooks like it.Worse, you believe children should be taught in schools where these are the basis of the education system in that school. Here`s a goodie from the koran, I don`t like to play favourites.
18 The Cave
86 Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.
Silly me, I thought the earth rotated and the other side of the world was exposed to the sun!
You lot want education based on these teachings?????
Superfriend help the next generation!


 
 
 
Topic Re: Help And Pointer Please 
Author Free Way 
Date Created 26/06/2005 22:39:36 
Message The Bible has many verses both in the Old and New Testament.

"And a man who lies with a male as he lies with a woman: both of them have done an abomination, they shall certainly be put to death, their blood is upon them." Leviticus 20:13

"Do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the reign of Elohim (God)? Do not be deceived. Neither those who whore, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor greedy of gain, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers shall inherit the reign of Elohim." 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

When you see today’s “Christians” saying they see no wrong in homosexuality you know they don’t have God’s ways in their hearts, he warns us of these so-called Christians in Romans 1:32 that if they approve of such wicked behaviour then they deserve death. His Word says it so how can the Church ignore it?

As humans we have no right to alter His Word and make it suit our purposes. Yahweh is the same yesterday, today and forever. The Law (or Torah) was never abolished, Christ fulfilled the sacrificial Law but His people maintain the rest. Unfortunately the Church have missed this, which is why today’s Christians are still considered lost.

Maureen, how do you manage to get around this passage of John 14:6 “Yahshua said to him, “I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.””? 
 
 
Topic Re: Help And Pointer Please 
Author Naufal Zamir 
Date Created 29/07/2005 23:36:21 
Message Assalamualaikum

There is a lot of misunderstanding about Islam. If people really sincerely wish to know what is Islam they have to have an open mind and try to search the TRUTH.

Islam cannot be learnt from Orientalists. Neither can Quran be understood by simple reading of it. There is a method to understand Quran. A little learning becomes dangerous when it comes to self-interpretation of Quran.

I think rather than getting bogged down with details or Islam which may or may not have different opinions, which neither proves or disproves anything - one who really wants to know Islam should ask -

Does God/Allah exist?
If God exist then is it rationally possible to believe the three in one stereo player theory or monotheism is the only plausible understanding?
If Allah/God exist then has He communicated to us?
If He has then which one is the authentic communication?
Are there Proofs that Quran is the word of Allah?
What are the proofs that Quran is still intact and preserved they way it was sent by Allah?

Looking at this website may help - www.harunyahya.com, there are lot more similar... just giving an example.

These are the basic questions rather than taking extracts from Quran without knowing or understanding the reason for revealation and history of that extract.

 
 
 
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