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Original Message
Forum Muslim Children 
Topic British Pakistani Youths 
Author Iftikhar 
Date Created 02/07/2005 18:52:15 
Message Established 1981
London School of Islamics
An Educational Trust
63 Margery Park Road London E7 9LD
Email: info@londonschoolofislamics.org.uk
www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk
Tel/Fax: 0208 555 2733 / 07817 112

British Pakistani Youths
Professor Yunus Samad of Bradford University delivered a lecture at Pakistan High Commission on the issues of the Pakistani youth. He criticised the Muslim community, Muslim parents, Masajid and Imams for all the problems of the Muslim youths.

In my view British education system and native teachers are responsible, who have no respect for Islamic values, languages and Muslim community. British education is the home of institutional racism. The schools and the teaching profession never tried to meet the needs and demands of Pakistani or Muslim children. They need a different approach in education. The native teachers do not have a clue of their mother tongues and values. There is a negative co-relation between school and home. The children come to schools with different values which have no place in English schools. They are victim of bullying through out their school life. The result is that they suffer from Identity Crises, making them mis-fit not only for the Muslim community but also for the host society. Majority of them leave schools with low grades or without any qualification. They suffer from mental, emotional and personality problems due to the fact that they have been mis-educated and de-educated by a system which does not understand them. In my view British education is responsible for all the problems of Pakistani youths, and not the parents, Masajid or Imams.

Pakistani bilingual children need state funded Muslim schools with bilingual Muslim teachers as role models. They need to learn Standard English to follow the National Curriculum and to go for higher studies and research to serve humanity. They need to learn Arabic to recite and understand the Holly Quran. They need to learn Urdu language to study and enjoy the beauty of Urdu literature and poetry and to keep in touch with their cultural roots. Most of Islamic literature and poetry is in Urdu and without learning Urdu they are unable to understand the spirit of Islam.
Iftikhar Ahmad


 
      
Responses
Topic Re: British Pakistani Youths 
Author Amused 
Date Created 02/07/2005 20:34:53 
Message Perhaps if you improved your written English you would get a proper job. You come across as semi literate. 
 
 
Topic Re: British Pakistani Youths 
Author MaureenDavies 
Date Created 03/07/2005 05:17:36 
Message Iftikhar: If as you say, the British education system is the institution for racicism, then surely the way to change it would be to start lobbying for inter-faith schools? This way, our children would learn to have respect for all faiths. It is the only way that we can break bigotry. It is hard to change the adult hard-liners on both sides, and I believe there to be bigots on both sides, or rather I should say all sides.
Children are only in school for a set number of hours. The rest of the time they are at home with parents. Parents of all groups could play a better role in teaching their children to be tollerant of other people's cultures and religions. We cannot pass this off onto teachers.
Islam and Christianity alike must be more open to learning and understanding other perspectives. In the past this has been lacking. We could also contemplate the similarities in the cultures rather than always looking at differences. 
 
 
Topic Re: British Pakistani Youths 
Author Free Way 
Date Created 03/07/2005 20:42:15 
Message "The result is that they suffer from Identity Crises, making them mis-fit not only for the Muslim community but also for the host society."
You said it yourself Iftikhar, England is the host nation. So it is you who needs to respect British traditions and teaching methods.

"In my view British education is responsible for all the problems of Pakistani youths, and not the parents, Masajid or Imams."
The blame game. Now Britain is responsible for Pakistani youth. Muslim logic. Muhammad tried the same and blamed his problems on others, especially the Jews.

"They need to learn Arabic to recite and understand the Holly Quran."
Some devine revalation from the Qur'an will show why people should not know the Qur'an:
Qur’an 2:106 “When we cancel a Verse or throw it into oblivion, We replace it with a better one.” [Or:] “Whatever Revelation We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We substitute something better.”
Qur’an 16:103 “When we replace a message with another, and Allah knows best what He reveals, they say: ‘You have made it up.’”
Qur’an 4:82 “Do they not ponder over the Qur’an? Had it been the word of any other but Allah they would surely have found a good deal of variation in it, much discrepancy and incongruity...those who check and scrutinize will know it.”

"Most of Islamic literature and poetry is in Urdu and without learning Urdu they are unable to understand the spirit of Islam."
I thought it was Arabic? 
 
 
Topic Re: British Pakistani Youths 
Author derek 
Date Created 13/07/2005 09:11:07 
Message When in Rome, do as the Romans do. Britain is not a Muslim state. If that causes Muslims problems why don't they stop whining and go back to Pakistan or even better Afghanistan.  
 
 
Topic Re: British Pakistani Youths 
Author Ateeq Sheikh 
Date Created 21/07/2005 19:04:21 
Message What is the situation of Pakistani Schools in Pakistan?

Do all muslims in pakistani schools know everything about religion and Islam?

Are the Pakistani teachers in Pakistan role models for their students?

Are the students in Pakistani schools never bullied by others ? In the UK and the US bullying is common not only against pakistanis but it happens against any child who the bullies pick up.

IF you complain about British teachers and schools having no respect for Islamic Values etc. Do you think Pakistani school teachers would have respect for christian values ?

When you leave your homeland and come to a 'host' nation you make a choice and you have to live with that choice. You cant make others change their systems for the choices you made.

OF all the problems you quote suffered by Pakistani children. Are you aware that there are many such problems faced by the British people (christians and non christians alike).

Difference of values at home and school, bullying, school dropouts, low greades, drugs, alcohol, teenage pregnancies etc etc.

Oh yeah these things are not limited to the British society, i have some Pakistani friends and i have heard things from them as to what goes on in their societies. Is it not true that the some part of Pakistan is know for homosexuality, and that too preference for young youth. Is it not true that smoking, chewing tobbaco, alcohol etc is also present in Pakistan and the entire socity as a whole? Isnt it true that corrouption is widespread.

And so they are the product of the entire system. So i if you want to teach them values teach them that dont expect the British to teach them Islamic Values. YOu teach them values and also teach them how to integrate in a Society that may or may not the same values. Dont throw the blame on the British Society.

The Home office did not send a British Airways plane and stewards to invite Pakistanis as guests to their lands.

So stop spreading this foolish attitude among yourselves. Stop this hatered and transfering of blames.

Yes it is true that muslims need to educate others as to what values they hold so that others know and we know theirs. This is how we will build a tolerant society.


Oh yeah and i am a Muslim and i aint any 'liberal,secular moderate or fundamental or radical kinds. I do all i can as a muslim, oh yeah i also have a long beard, an information for those who may have a thing that beards = radical (I have a long beard though). A simple muslim is what i am.


 
 
 
Topic Re: British Pakistani Youths 
Author 531 
Date Created 23/07/2005 15:45:41 
Message If you are to find muslim teachers as role models for muslim youth where will you find them and how many do you need?
At present a teacher needs a degree in a relevant subject plus a post graduate qualification or an education based degree; either way it takes four years to qualify.
Secondly, one of the murderers from Yorkshire was a teaching mentor. Presumably he was thought to be a good role model.
Lastly, I work with a muslim female teaching assistant. She wears the headscarf and keeps her legs and arms covered so I assume she is fairly religious. She is studying part time for a degree with the intention of becoming a teacher. She complains that many muslims of her father's generation do not support their children's education for fear that learning will take them away from Islam. My own personal experience of gaining a degree in my mid 40's tends to support this view. I moved from being a long term member of a fundamentalist Christian sect to a much broader minded member of the Church of England.
I think that muslim's must be very insecure in their religion if they support the various atrocities carried out in the name of God. 
 
 
Topic Re: British Pakistani Youths 
Author GORDON 
Date Created 24/07/2005 14:47:01 
Message No social problem is simple, no social problem is solved by shifting the blame from one group to another. Within the UK we have to explore a range of approaches and strategies, but always remain open-minded, tolerant and committed to the goals of equality, individual freedom, diversity and education. By education I mean the process of offering each person in this country the chance to make the most of their talent, their interests, their cultural choices and commitments, their freedoms. That will be achieved in a number of different ways, which will include Muslim schools, multi-faith schools and secular community schools. I agree that there is institutional racism in all our systems, but that is something to be struggled against, not abandoned as hopeless. White English educators like me can play our part in that and we are not helped by blanket condemnations which are clearly flawed. Nor is the author's cause helped by these as they result in the kinds of stupid abusiveness that I have read in some responses. Maybe we all feel better when we have blamed someone else or shouted at them. But it does not make us better people, believers, teachers, citizens. What may help is the genuine efforts of individuals to learn from each other, to respect each other, to empathise with each other, and painlfully to learn what we can do together to bring hope and purpose into the lives of so many alienated and despairing young people.  
 
 
Topic Re: British Pakistani Youths 
Author GORDON 
Date Created 24/07/2005 14:47:01 
Message No social problem is simple, no social problem is solved by shifting the blame from one group to another. Within the UK we have to explore a range of approaches and strategies, but always remain open-minded, tolerant and committed to the goals of equality, individual freedom, diversity and education. By education I mean the process of offering each person in this country the chance to make the most of their talent, their interests, their cultural choices and commitments, their freedoms. That will be achieved in a number of different ways, which will include Muslim schools, multi-faith schools and secular community schools. I agree that there is institutional racism in all our systems, but that is something to be struggled against, not abandoned as hopeless. White English educators like me can play our part in that and we are not helped by blanket condemnations which are clearly flawed. Nor is the author's cause helped by these as they result in the kinds of stupid abusiveness that I have read in some responses. Maybe we all feel better when we have blamed someone else or shouted at them. But it does not make us better people, believers, teachers, citizens. What may help is the genuine efforts of individuals to learn from each other, to respect each other, to empathise with each other, and painlfully to learn what we can do together to bring hope and purpose into the lives of so many alienated and despairing young people.  
 
 
Topic Re: British Pakistani Youths 
Author 531 
Date Created 24/07/2005 23:04:10 
Message Gordon said:
I agree that there is institutional racism in all our systems, but that is something to be struggled against, not abandoned as hopeless. White English educators like me can play our part in that .........

I do not agree with this. I am not prepared to assume that I am working in an inherently racist system. I have seen no evidence to support that at all. Accepting such an outrageous statement just further perpetuates the problem. 
 
 
Topic Re: British Pakistani Youths 
Author The Khyberman 
Date Created 25/07/2005 23:52:16 
Message Mr Iftikhar

Salam

I think you shoud visit the forums of your own website and see some of the discussions going on there.
There are a lot of questions being asked and LSI is silent. This way you are only creating speculation about LSI's true motives in trying to push Islamic madrassas in UK.

Please do not respond to this Email, rather reply to the people who have posted on your website so everyone can see your position on this.

Thank you & Khuda Hafiz 
 
 
Topic Re: British Pakistani Youths 
Author Nick K 
Date Created 26/07/2005 09:02:43 
Message One question, what freedoms or concessions do any other religions have in Muslim countries?
The answer, quite simply is none.
I think it is very important to harass our Western politicians into condemning the lack of freedom of conscience and religious minority rights in Muslim countries. The Muslims cannot possibly object to people doing this without risking exposure of their true objectives for Western countries. If religious freedom is a good thing for them here in the West, then why is it not a good thing for people in majority Muslim countries? They can't have it both ways. We have to hit them over the head with these concepts until they start screaming. It is completely unacceptable that they can build a zillion mosques all over the West and freely do Da'wa, while in Saudi Arabia not a single church or synagogue is allowed to exist and all over the Muslim world, religious minorities are persecuted.

oh but what about freedom of speech, human rights and democracy well one Islamic cleric who's name escaped me for the moment said, "human rights was a judaeo/Christian concept and had no place in Islam".. So, no democracy, no human rights, is what you get if sharia law became the law of the land. You want to get beat up by thugs because you picnic in the park? Or play music or any number of things that might bring you into conflict with sharia. Death and bodily punishment is what these shariaholics have in mind for offenders, worse even for dhimmis. To make matters worse almost any mullah can act as sheriff and any fired up Muslim can act as deputy. That's why it's a good idea to have secular governments where Islam/religion operates as a sub group but has no direct participation...everytime a religion gets political power, all hell breaks loose...strange but true...

well lets have a look at the kind of welcome Christians and other religions get in Muslim countries....

Indonesia: In the eastern islands of this largest Muslim nation in the world, white-uniformed militiamen of Laskar Jihad are forcibly converting Christians to Islam. Marshall said this caused considerable embarrassment to the government, which did not condone such actions.
This campaign has so far cost the lives of 5,000 to 6,000 people.


Bangladesh: Small radical groups supporting Osama bin Laden have bombed or burned down churches.

Pakistan: Several Muslim leaders have issued fatwas (religious decrees) to kill two Pakistani Christians for every Afghan Muslim who dies in the Anglo-American air raids.
There have also been attacks on Christians along the Afghan border, Marshall told UPI.


Egypt: The government discriminates against Christianity by financing the construction of mosques, while denying permits for the reconstruction of Christian sanctuaries, according to Marshall.

Saudi-Arabia: In the last two months, 15 Christian expatriates have been jailed for worshiping in private homes, and three have been tortured, according to the religious rights organization International Christian Concern.


No religion other than Islam is allowed in the kingdom, and there is no church. When asked about this, Abdullah M. Khouj, rector of the Islamic Centre in Washington, replied, "This is a matter to be negotiated between governments."


Sudan: Some 2 million people, chiefly Christians, have been killed in a civil war fought by the radical Islamic regime in the north of the country against non-Arab population in the south, according to several sources including Marshall and Diane Knippers' Institute on Religion and Democracy.
For several years now, international religious rights organizations have reported that Christians are being raped, tortured to death and crucified.


Somalia: Anybody found out to be a Christian will quickly be beheaded by Muslim vigilantes, Marshall said.

Nigeria: In 12 states, versions of Shari'a law, the Islamic penal code, have been imposed - in violation of the constitution of that African federal republic.
After the imposition of Islamic law, riots ensued killing 5,000 in the city of Kaduna alone, said Marshall. Other reports put the death toll at around 1,000.


In other Muslim countries, such as Algeria, Islamic radicals opposed to the government are killing other Muslims, primarily women and children although they have also murdered priests, nuns and even a bishop, Marshall explained.
Others, such as the once-tolerant, formerly republican African nation of Mauritania are now taking tougher measures against Christians, Marshall continued. "If you arrive with a Bible, they'll take it off you. And it's illegal to preach Christianity to the locals."......

Well is`nt that an eye opener, wait a second what was the problem you said "In my view British education system and native teachers are responsible, who have no respect for Islamic values, languages and Muslim community."

looking at the problems our religious settlers have I am sure they would love to exchange their problems with yours, I can just imagine Christian settlers asking the Saudi government for funding for Christian schools, how long do you think they would be incarcerated for?.....
My advice is stop whinging if you don't like it there are many different places for you to go after all this is only a little island on such a big planet, or is it because Muslims find it impossible to live in such a tyrannical regime of the Islamic country?, draw your own conclusions!!

 
 
 
Topic Re: British Pakistani Youths 
Author The Khyberman 
Date Created 27/07/2005 01:39:38 
Message Nick:

Bang on target mate!

I'd like to add something though...

AFGHANISTAN: A small minority of Sikhs & Hindus have fled the country since 1996 through 2001 due to the tyranical Taliban government.

Sikhs in Afghanistan tended to be wealthy and successful businessmen and were often targets for kidnappings and extortion by 'local thugs', which in turn were run by Talib warlords. Some Sikh families have been in Afghanistan for generations.

Two prominent Sikh temples in Kabul and another in Jalalabad are barely tolerated, the Sikh Holy Scriptures (which are the focus of any Sikh temple - or Gurudwara) lying in them have been spirited away by followers and taken to India so they would not be desecrated.

Most Sikhs (& Hindus) who proudly called themselves Afghans have fled the country and are asylum seekers in India, USA, UK and elsewhere on the European mainland. All this because they were not muslim.

The ancient statues of The Buddha in Bamiyan (look it up on the Internet, it will make you cringe) - a world heritage site have been blasted away from the cliff faces they stood in for a thousand years, despite strong international protests and pleas.

THAT is the respect other religions get in Islamic countries.

I am not religious, but I suffered for not being born a muslim. I don't believe anybody's mumbo-jumbo, not even the religion of my fathers, but look what religion has done to me and my family, which splintered and flung to the four corners of the world. I haven't seen my mother for a lifetime - just because I was not born a muslim.

I am fortunate that this country has given me refuge, a home, a job and respectability. I work hard and I thank each day that there are people willing to give me a break - regardless of my color, religion or whatever - something my 'motherland' didn't do.



Mr Iftikhar, I speak Urdu, Pushto, Dari (Farsi) and Punjabi. I still haven't seen what you call 'the spirit of Islam'. There isn't any mate. None at all. 
 
 
Topic Re: British Pakistani Youths 
Author lisle 
Date Created 27/07/2005 16:58:55 
Message the community turns a blind eye to the issues and needs of young people, and there needs to be strutured resposne to addressing the needs of young people.

who do we see talking about young people, those who do not understand or are aware of the issues
 
 
 
Topic Re: British Pakistani Youths 
Author The Reverend Peter M. Hawkins 
Date Created 29/07/2005 08:26:08 
Message Dear Iftikar,
thank you for your further rant on your pet hobby horse.
As I have pointed out to you before, there is no "British education system", but there are different arrangements for the Kingdom of England, the Principality of Wales, the Kingdom of Scotland, the Province of Northern Ireland, the Isle of Man, and the Channel Islands, at the least, to say nothing of Gibralter etc.
What you have written is not true of the schools where I have been and am a Governor. The major issue in this matter of the school where I am now a Governor, and one third of the pupils are Muslim, whose parents originate from Azad Kashmir, is that the home language is Punjabi, but there is no written Punjabi Language for Azad Kashmir. There is, of couse for East Punjab and Sikhs. Further there was a poor educational history for the Princely State of Jammu and Kashmir, and the present educational arrangements in Pakistan Administer Kashmir do not seem to benefit our pupils.
We do have a Lahore Urdu Teacher, and his results are the best of any subject in the school, but he has difficulty in motivating all the pupils in this subject, and for those who are not academic, the learning of Urdu, and English in School and Arabic in the Madrassah, as well as the use of Punjabi at home, is very burdensome. It must also be remembered that it is not unusual for Azad Kashmiris to be illiterate in any language, so the present day pupils come from a rather poor cultural background.
I thought that most Islamic literature and poetry was in Arabic, and not in Urdu.
Your origin as a Muslim from Oudh does not seem to help you understand the situation of Azad Kasmiris.
Best wishes,
the Reverend Peter M. Hawkins.
 
 
 
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